Pedophilia: Amaar Khan vs Saadiq Mohammad

Submitted by Amar Khan on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 08:15

[FFI Editors Note: Amaar Khan's ebook on Pedophilia in Islam is in our library. We received an article from Mr. Saadiq Muhammad assuming a rebuttal to Mr. Amaar Khan's claims. FFI asked Mr. Amaar Khan for his responses to Mr. Muhammad's Claims. Below is what Mr. Muhammad claimed and the response to that from Mr. Amaar Khan. The reader will be the judge as to who proved his points.]

Saadiq Mohammad:

I recently read an article by Amaar Khan titled ‘A complete guide to pedophilia in Islam’. In his argument he quotes Surah 33:49 and Surah 65:4 as proof that pedophilia is prescribed and promoted in the Quran. He then uses hadith, tafsirs and fatwas to back up his points. He tells us to pay close attention to the section in 65:4 that states ‘those who have not menstruated yet’ on page 1 of his article. He says, regarding this verse, and I quote ‘because it is going to be most important in this article.’

Amar Khan:

Evidence from Quran that pedophilia is not prohibited but rather promoted.

In cases of divorces, where the husband had sex with the wife, the Quran specifies the Iddah, a waiting period of three months, in verse 65:4:

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran.

Clearly, the Quran divides woman in two types:

1. Women who have reached menopause, and

2. Women who do not have menses yet.

The stipulated Iddah period is three months. The word used here is “NISA”, the same word is used in many verses regarding the prepubescent girls. E.g.

And [remember the time] when we saved you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with cruel suffering, slaughtering your sons and sparing [only] your women - which was an awesome trial from your Sustainer;

(Waith najjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun) [Quran. 2:49]

Then tafsirs of all commentators on verse 65:4 clearly prove the fact that according to Quran the “ Iddah of prepubescent girls is three months.”

Now the main point here is that according to the Quran, any woman who got divorced before her first menstruation will have three months of “iddah”. So clearly it is allowable to marry a girl who have not yet menstruated. There is no lower limit mentioned in the Quran. So, it is allowed to marry any girl who has not yet have her first menses. She even can be less then one year old.

Saadiq Mohammad:

So let us look at this to see if the Qur'an really allows pedophilia.

J. Geoff Malta, MA, EdM, NCC, an Adolescent Therapist says on his website:

( http://www.puberty101.com/p_pubgirls.shtml ) that there are 5 stages of puberty in women. If you visit this site he says that menstruation occurs during stage 3 which is between the ages of 9 to 15 years of age. He says that only SOME girls get their first period during this time, meaning a small number of girls. So if we look to the next stage as being the one in which most girls menstruate (stage 4) the age is 10 to 16.

Now let us look to at the age of sexual consent, under the law in some NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES. If you visit: ( http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm ) you will see a list of countries and their legal age limit for consent to sex. For the sake of those who have little time, I will list some examples from this website.

Australia the age is 16

Canada the age is 16

Israel the age is 14

UK the age is 16

In some US states, like Indiana and Iowa, the age is as low as 14, but the national average is 16.

Amaar Khan:

First of all I will have to check the data given to me.

According to http://www.puberty101.com/p_pubgirls.shtml

Menarch (the beginning of menstruation) usually happens in "Stage 4" of puberty, but can happen late in Stage 3 as well. While there are no real "signs" of an impending first period, there are signs that may let you know when it is likely to happen.

	Five Stages of Puberty - Girls
1	Age Range: Usually 8-11 In Stage 1 there are no outside signs of development, but a girl's ovaries are enlarging and hormone production is beginning.
2	Age Range: Usually 8-14. Average: 11-12 The first sign is typically the beginning of breast growth, including "breast buds." A girl may also grow considerable height and weight. The first signs of pubic hair start out fine and straight, rather than curly.
3	Age Range: Usually 9-15. Average: 12-13 Breast growth continues, and pubic hair coarsens and becomes darker, but there still isn't a lot of it. Your body is still growing, and your vagina is enlarging and may begin to produce a clear or whitish discharge, which is a normal self-cleansing process. Some girls get their first menstrual periods late in this stage.
4	Age Range: Usually 10-16. Average: 13-14 Pubic hair growth takes on the triangular shape of adulthood, but doesn't quite cover the entire area. Underarm hair is likely to appear in this stage, as is menarche. Ovulation (release of egg cells) begins in some girls, but typically not in a regular monthly routine until Stage 5.
5	Age Range: Usually 12-19. Average: 15 This is the final stage of development, when a girl is physically an adult. Breast and pubic hair growth are complete, and your full height is usually attained by this point. Menstrual periods are well established, and ovulation occurs monthly.

So Menarch can happen usually at 9-16 years of age, and average age here is 12-14 years.

But the actual problem with the Quran is that it does not impose any lower limit, which I have explained above.

Let us make a thorough examination of minimum age of marriage in country wise. According to http://www.muslim-marriage-guide.com/marriage-age.html, which is an Islamic site and wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age :

Male 22, Female 20	China (PRC),
Both 21	Puerto Rico, Philippines, Singapore,
Male 21, Female 18	Algeria, Bangladesh, India,
Male 21, Female 17	Mississippi,
Male 21, Female 16	Hong Kong, SAR of China,
Both 20	Senegal, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand,
Male 20, Female 17	Tunisia
Male 20, Female 15	Thailand
Male 19, Female 17	Nebraska
Both 18	Ethiopia, Morocco, Chile, Peru, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Venezuela, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Sri Lanka, Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Netherland, Norway, Romania, Russia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine
Male 18, Female 17	Indiana, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Uzbekistan, Northern Ireland,
Male 18, Female 16	Pakistan, Egypt, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Mexico, Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Delaware, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Ohio, Indonesia, Poland,Portugal, England and Wales, Jersey, Australia, New Zealand,
Male 18, Female 15	Tanzania, Georgia, Hawai, Missouri,
Male 18, Female 14	Afghanistan,
Male 17, Female 14	Madgascar,
Both 16	Kenya, Maldives, Scotland,
Puberty	Sudan, Yemen
Male 16, Female 16	Jordan
Male 16, Female 14	Paraguay
Male 15, Female 13	Iran

From the above chart, the minimum age limit in Afghanistan is 14 years, and in Iran, it is 13 years. Both are Islamic countries, and they follow the Sunnah. But, still the age of Menarch varies from 10-16.

Saadiq Muhammad:

What can we learn from this? That NORMAL (I stress this word for a reason that I will mention later) age that most women menstruate is between the ages of 10 - 16 and that NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES allow consent to sex at about the time of a woman’s first menstruation. So, If a woman living in any of the examples I listed above begins menstruation at or around the age of 16 and a man has sexual contact with her, he can NOT be labeled a pedophile since the law allows sexual contact with women this young. By now, someone who is unbiased can see how Amaar Khan’s argument gradually implodes.

Amaar Khan

Yes, you are right that any one having sex with a girl of age 16 should not be labeled as pedophile, but the problem is that the Quran allows a male to marry a girl before she gets menses. She can even be of one year old. No lower limit is provided.

So the problem is with the Quran, and definitely not with the laws of different countries. These countries have imposed a lower limit for marriage with an average age limit of 18 years. But the author of the Quran does not care to impose any limit. Perhaps, the author wanted to rationalize his own example of marrying a girl before her Menarch.

Saadiq Mohammad

Most people living in Western nations will say ‘But women are menstruating at a much earlier age nowadays’. This fact is true in many 1st world nations, but is this a natural occurrence? The reasons for this early development can be attributed to the high fat content in a woman’s body. Poor eating habits and factors like obesity have been scientifically linked to girls having menstruations at an earlier than normal age. Sandra Steingraber wrote an article about this titled ‘Goodbye Girls’:

http://www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=121078392475499700 .

In this article she states the following

‘If historical statistics are any guide, the average girl in northern Europe in the 1830s entered puberty — defined by menarche, or the onset of menstruation — at approximately 17 years of age. Today, chances are that her American counterpart will have her first period at about 12 and a half’

History is showing us that the further back you go, the higher the age a woman becomes during her first menstruation. This is due in large part to the dietary habits of people who lived thousands of years ago, compared to those living today. Although we have no historical records indicating the average age of menstruation of women living in Arabia, during the 6th and 7th century, we can easily assume, from the article I listed above, that it was at least at age 17, if not a bit higher.

So, at the time of the revelation of 65:4 the age of menstruation in women was probably about 17 years of age (at least). So at the time of the revelation a pre-pubescent woman could have been between the ages of 14 – 16 years old (at least), which is within the age limit of legal sexual contact with a woman in the countries I listed above.

Amaar Khan

It is true that the age of Menarch is decreasing, but I have explained above that the Quran does not impose any lower limit on the age of marriage. It can be less than one year old.

If we assume that the lower limit is the initial time of Menarch, verse 65:4 is still getting in a fatal trouble; namely, it allows a girl to be married before her Menarch. If the age for Menarch is decreasing, then this means that you can marry an even younger girl.

For example, if the age of first menses was 17 in 622 AD then it was allowed to marry a girl at 17. If the age of first menses is 12, it is allowed to marry a girl at 12 according to Islam. This means that the Quranic “alleged” lower limit is decreasing with the passage of time.

At the end of this article I will explain when did Ayesha really got her Menarch.

Saadiq Muhammad

So let’s look at the implications of this, as it pertains to ISLAM…

Being a Muslim means obeying the laws of the country you live in as long as they do NOT contradict or come into direct violation of Allah’s commandments in the Quran or clear cut Islamic Rulings. So in the case of marrying a younger woman; is this a part of Allah’s commandments or Islamic rulings? Is it an obligation put on ALL Muslim men?

Is it Wajib or Fard (strict obligation or compulsive act)? The answer is NO! If a Muslim man never marries a younger woman he is NO less a Muslim than the man who chooses to do so LEGALY. A Muslim man who denies himself this kind of marriage is no closer or further from entering heaven than a Muslim man who marries a young woman.

Amaar Khan has to demonstrate or prove that this act of marriage to a younger woman is a strict, compulsory obligation for all Muslim men, and I believe he can NOT because such information is non-existent and is NO part of Islam and it’s teachings.

Amaar Khan

I have proven that the Quran allows and promotes pedophilia, Mohammed have made an example of it. His companions have practiced it, and all the mainstream Ulemas are in favor of it, and it is still proudly practiced in the Islamic world.

If we left the issue of Ayesha, there still are other narrations regarding babies which Mohammed wanted to marry. Let us see:

Muhammad wanted to marry a crawling baby-girl. Let us read what Ibn Ishaq, the most authentic biographer of Muhammad, wrote about this.

(Suhayli, ii.79: In the Riwaya of Yunus I. I recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu’l–Fadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, ‘If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.’ But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. ‘Abdu’l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubaba… (ibn Ishaq, 2001, p. 311).

Similarly there is another narration:

Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her." (Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636)

See, how Mohammed wants to get babies even at the deathbed.

Similarly, we know that Mohammed used “transparent skins” for hoories of jannat. And we know that only babies have transparent skins.

It is a proven fact that Mohammed was a pedophile. He wanted to have sex with Ayesha because he saw her in dreams.

(Bukhari 62:015).

Narated By 'Aisha : Allah's Apostle said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.'"

We know today that dreams come when we have any desire or wish in any part of our mind. So Mohammed surely did have thoughts about Ayesha in his life before his marriage.

Being a Muslim, it is first and final obligation to do what the prophet have done. To follow his Sunnah is a duty. So it is a duty of every Muslims to follow the Sunnah of the prophet and marry a 9 year old girl.

Saadiq Muhammad

As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.

Amaar Khan

I have explained the authenticity of these narrations. And there is only one reason for repeated narrations regarding pedophilia - it is an accepted thing in Islam. Muslims teach their young girls to respect their husbands by quoting that Ayesha was only nine years when married, but she still respected the prophet very much. I have explained that pedophilia is not only consistent with Ayesha, it is being proved by other sources also. So there is no need for Muslims to hide the age of Ayesha by saying that narrations are wrong. If these narrations are wrong then all the narrations are wrong. If we accept what you say, then the whole Islamic literature is crap. This is a must conclusion.

Saadiq Muhammad

Maulana Muhammad Ali wrote an English booklet titled ‘Prophet of Islam’ and in it he states the following:

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

This scholar puts the age of consummation of Aisha at 14 or 15 years old which is in accordance to today’s laws in some 1^st world nations (USA and Israel) as to the age of a woman who can be LEGALLY engaged in sexual intercourse with a man.

To facilitate understanding dates of these events, please note that it was in the tenth year of the Call, i.e. the tenth year after the Holy Prophet Muhammad received his calling from God to his mission of prophethood, that his wife Khadija passed away, and the approach was made to Abu Bakr for the hand of his daughter Aisha. The hijra or emigration of the Holy Prophet to Madina took place three years later, and Aisha came to the household of the Holy Prophet in the second year after hijra. So if Aisha was born in the year of the Call, she would be ten years old at the time of the nikah and fifteen years old at the time of the consummation of the marriage.

Amaar Khan

Who is Mohammed Ali? This is the first time, I heard of him. Is he a prophet , a companion of the prophet or a hadith writer?

How can he say so? Any reference from the Quran , the hadith etc.?

Saadiq Muhammad

Later research by people like Abu Tahir Irfani in his book titled ‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’ states that Aisha was 14 or 15 years old at the time of her marriage and 19 years old at the time of her comsumation. He, like others point out the following facts:

1.The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:

“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”

Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.”

This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practicing Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.

Amaar Khan

When someone becomes that old, people don’t care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable at the old age compared to younger folks, and it is questionable when 100 is a round figure. Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Aisha and did not sit down to make the calculations and deductions. She was not an important person, and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy. This could be a genuine mistake by the narrator of the Hadith.. Now let us examine the narrations and their authenticity:

In that article the number of ahadith given were:

Book Number of Narrations

Bukhari 6

Muslim 4

Abu Dawud 7

Nisai 1

Ibn Majah 2

Ibn Ishaq 1

Musnad Ahmad 1

Al-Tabari 5

Total 27

There are 27 narrations which are more than many other fundamental rituals of Islam. These narrations say directly that Ayesha was 9 years old. Suppose that all the provided narrations are “weak” then still there are a lot of other hadiths which shows that Ayesha was a young girl when she got married. For example:

‘A’ishah said: I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." [Sunan Abu Dawud 3:4913, p.1373]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Suppose Ayesha was 14 or 15 years old then isn’t it quite ridiculous that Ayesha was playing with dolls being swung between two branches. She even was not so mature to clean her face because her nurse took her and wiped her face. She burst into laughter. Wow, what kind of bride was she? It is only possible that Ayesha was 9 years old.

She was actually almost 8 years and 9 months old because the narrations are according to lunar calendar. So if you deny 27 strong narrations then you must be a Quran only Muslim. If you are so, then the problem is solved because Quran only Muslim is not a Muslim in reality.

Furthermore, most of the narrations are from Ayesha herself. So there should be no be any ambiguity about her age because only the person herself knows very well what her actual age is.

Still if any one does not believe that Ayesha was 8 years and 9 months old, then he is no more a Muslim.

When did Ayesha get her first menses?

There is a narration in Bukhari regarding the Menarch of Ayesha.

Sahih Bukhari 1:6:293:

Narrated Al-Qasim:

'Aisha said, "We set out with the sole intention of performing Hajj and when we reached Sarif, (a place six miles from Mecca) I got my menses. Allah's Apostle came to me while I was weeping. He said 'What is the matter with you? Have you got your menses?' I replied, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is a thing which Allah has ordained for the daughters of Adam. So do what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Taw-af (Circumambulation) round the Ka'ba." 'Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle sacrificed cows on behalf of his wives."

Sahih Bukhari 2:26:631

Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad:

' Aisha said, "We set out with Allah's Apostles in the months of Hajj, and (in) the nights of Hajj, and at the time and places of Hajj and in a state of Hajj. We dismounted at Sarif (a village six miles from Mecca). The Prophet then addressed his companions and said, "Anyone who has not got the Hadi and likes to do Umra instead of Hajj may do so (i.e. Hajj-al-Tamattu) and anyone who has got the Hadi should not finish the Ihram after performing ' Umra). (i.e. Hajj-al-Qiran). Aisha added, "The companions of the Prophet obeyed the above (order) and some of them (i.e. who did not have Hadi) finished their Ihram after Umra." Allah's Apostle and some of his companions were resourceful and had the Hadi with them, they could not perform Umra (alone) (but had to perform both Hajj and Umra with one Ihram). Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle came to me and saw me weeping and said, "What makes you weep, O Hantah?" I replied, "I have heard your conversation with your companions and I cannot perform the Umra." He asked, "What is wrong with you?' I replied, 'I do not offer the prayers (i.e. I have my menses).' He said, 'It will not harm you for you are one of the daughters of Adam, and Allah has written for you (this state) as He has written it for them. Keep on with your intentions for Hajj and Allah may reward you that." Aisha further added, "Then we proceeded for Hajj till we reached Mina and I became clean from my menses.

(Note: The second hadith has been shortened by deleting the last part which has no relevance here at all.)

Mohammed married ayesha after Hijra (emigration to madina) about at the time of the year 622, and she was at the time of 8 years and 9 months old. She got her first menses while journey for hajj in 629 when she was about 16 years. So she got her menses in 4^th stage of puberty. Still fifth stage was left even after the hajj.

Saadiq Muhammad

I have been waiting for Amaar khan to answer me for some time now. I have contacted Ali Sina himself, on his Facebook page and requested a debate with either himself or Amaar Khan. Thus far my invitation has not been answered. So, I am taking this opportunity to call out Amaar Khan and challenge him to a debate over this issue. I do hope that those who know and speak to Amaar Khan will relay this challenge to him and direct him to this article that I have written. I do understand that free time is an issue, so I am willing to accept any format, whether it be a wall to wall posting or an e-mail structured debate.

Amaar Khan, I am waiting! Will you answer this call or hide from it?

Amaar Khan

Dear brother, today at 8 pm (Pakistan standard time) I got an email from FFI editor about your rebuttal. And I have completed counter rebuttal at 10 pm, in spite of the fact that my midterm examinations have been started. I hope all of your arguments have been answered and I have added some extra data in this article which I left in my compiled article “A Complete Guide to Pedophilia in Islam”. What you have done is nothing new for me. Before leaving Islam, I also used these tactics to satisfy myself. But I know that man is very keen in nature. After reading this counter rebuttal surely there will arise some questions in your mind which will lead you to truth.

Regards,

Amaar khan,

Pakistan

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I don't get one thing.....

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 08:57.

I don't get one thing..... why does not sadiq understand that just bcos a girl has started her menses, does not mean that she is either physically or mentaly fit for sexual relations with a man, whether he is her age or the age of her grandfather's, just like Muhammad and ayesha.

Guys please educate me on a

Submitted by proudkafir (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 09:30.

Guys please educate me on a few things.
1/How dumb a moslem can get? there is dumb. dumber,dumbest and then moslem, then a dumb moslem, dumber moslem and then Dumbest moslem.... Will it go on till eternity like this dumb reproduces dumber etc
What ever be the age of Ayesha when she attained menarche, what is crucial is how old was the floppy, leaky dik fellow when he went in to ayesha? The umm al momeen? 55! Fit enough to have a stif dik or old enough to have a floppy leaky dik?
Some one said I was being racist when I said Arabs are not very bright! I should say moslems are not very bright are they?

For Inhuman Muslims like

Submitted by Allahmiyan (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 11:50.

For Inhuman Muslims like MoHamMad,the age of the girl or any Woman does not matter. What a Muslim male wants is just a hole to thrust his dirty dick in, Sunnah after all what matters for any Muslim Pig. Evil Sunnah of their pedophile Prophet MoHamMad. Read the following---link

"Thighing" is an Islamic practice still followed today even in Muslim communities in the U.S. and Britain:

Regarding the practice of "thighing", the masterbating between the legs of a female infant or actually sodomizing her, Islamic clerics have this to say:

Pedophilia decrees from www.islamic-fatwa.net

The best way to find some

Submitted by Allahmiyan (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 11:58.

The best way to find some proof about my previous statement, ask our Islamic rabid dog Aka "James Gand 007" She is the right Muslimah to tell us the facts about Islamic Pedophilia and Sodomy from her personal experience ( I mean Childhood trauma ) if at all the Muslimas think that's a Trauma? Ha Ha Ha Ha

This Saadiq guy has confirmed

Submitted by BustedDivinity. (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 12:31.

This Saadiq guy has confirmed my opinion on anybody trying some apologetics on the pedophilia issue in Islam, IMO "one must be highly disingenuous" whenever he/she tries to right the wrong in the pedophillic crime, Saadiq knows fully well that the most acceptable Hadiths reported Aisha's age at 9, heck am sure the guy could easily tell other people to stick with the Bukhari and Muslim type Hadiths, but at the same time when it comes to the pedophilia issue he will want to confuse the authenticity of the said Hadiths by bringing in lesser alternatives, is this double standard, selfishness or simply a confused way of thinking?

The second less than reality type approach to this (only for the demented mind) type crime by the mental gymnast is the time difference high jump, in this event, the lame apologists will say time differs, so girls' physical development changes, well this shows that they are not co-ordinated in thoughts, the sunnah is for all time, if Mohammad did it, then the Muslim of the year 3000 should also do it (though I hope Islam will be in the museum by then), surely no medal is going the way of these lowest of the low gymnasts.

Mr. Saadiq, Can you please

Submitted by Ibn Kammuna (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 15:46.

Mr. Saadiq,
Can you please forget about defending or not defending Islam on Pedophilia. Can you please step out and look objectively about what you presented above, and compare to what Mr. Khan presented..You had pretty much secondary sources. He had 27 different quotes from authentic sources..So, now tell me: do you still think you won the debate? Please be fair to yourself and to Mr. Khan.
I will tell you one thing though. I read the whole thing. Mr. Amaar Khan won the debate, no questions asked. I am sure most, if not all readers, will tell you the same thing. Peace

An interesting info for

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 16:42.

An interesting info for Indians on this Forum, Barrack Hussein Obama has declared that he will be ending the off shoring of jobs to India. The evil man has shown his ugly face once again. While Jorge Bush might have made some mistakes, he was no evil man and was a friend of India's But this Barrack guy, wants to snuggle unto Hizbullah and Al Qaeda.
Shame on all the Americans who voted for this two faced serpent who is a narcissist bum.

[...] bookmarks tagged faith

Submitted by Pages tagged "faith no more" (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 16:53.

[...] bookmarks tagged faith no more Pedophilia: Amaar Khan vs Saadiq Mohammad » Faith... saved by 4 others FlyerStormer bookmarked on 02/25/09 | [...]

Islam is all about Sex ,

Submitted by Halalpork786 (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 17:32.

Islam is all about Sex , perverted Sex; I wonder what is wrong about that? What else a cult like Islam can do without Sex? Human beings and animal alike need Sex. Sexual perversion is a different thing. But the fact is all Cults like Islam and Christianity depend on sex for their survival. Sex is a bare necessity for the survival of any Cult or for that matter any society.

But sexual perversion is typically part of all Cults like Islam and Christianity.

Ibrahim, you consider a man

Submitted by godcommentator (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 18:19.

Ibrahim,
you consider a man evil just too soon. Can you be sure of what his plans are about to bring?
just wait and hope.

I am glad to finally see my

Submitted by Saadiq1977 (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 19:57.

I am glad to finally see my article posted on this site. I am also a bit disappointed.

I understand that the FFI editors wanted Amaar Khan's responses to co-inside with what I have stated but it does become misleading. The reason for this is that it gives the impression that Amaar Khan and I met at some forum or over the internet or face to face and had a debate, where I said one thing and Amaar Khan responded. This is not the case. I posted my rebuttal in whole and Amaar Khan has done the same. the FFI editors cut them up and pasted them together so responses can co-inside.

It is up to me now to form a counter rebuttal to what Amaar Khan has said in response to my article. Therefore, there was no winner or loser. The debate is only in it's first steps people. What you read above is not and was not a complete debate of the issues. I am currently writing a rebuttal to what Amaar has said and I will send it for publication on the FFI site. I will also post it here for people to read.

I do hope that the FFI editors point out these facts so the reader is not mislead in any way. Its the honest and fair thing to do.

Expect my response soon folks. I do hope it can be connected to this post so people can find it easier.

PK ( PAGAL KAFIR ) Allahmiyan

Submitted by JAMES BOND 007 (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 20:39.

PK ( PAGAL KAFIR ) Allahmiyan aka Halalpork786 u have rightly said about sex, my workers were ploughing in the field and they found a box under the earth, when i opened it to my surprise i found a lady ( sit* ) now i am taking her front and back and she is very happy with my performance, at present i am very busy with her, so do not disturb me.

I cant understand why there

Submitted by godcommentator (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 21:00.

I cant understand why there exists somebody who protect pedophilia.
I i were a muslim, i would debate with some authors here for other things than this obviously pedophilia.

Mr. Saadiq, Get real man. The

Submitted by Ibn Kammuna (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 21:05.

Mr. Saadiq, Get real man. The case and its evidence is damaging against your claims man. Its not about winning or losing a debate. Its about trying to ascertain the truth. Look at this from the above article:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Narrated ‘Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Claiming the Aisha's age is older is just utter nonsense. You need to be objective to the facts. It is not about winning or losing a debate here. we are just trying to learn the truth. Okay.

Ibn Kammuna you are

Submitted by Saadiq1977 (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 23:24.

Ibn Kammuna you are contradicting yourself. i am aware that it is not about winning or losing the debate, its about the truth. I was responding to YOUR earlier post, post number 6 when you said, and I quote:

'I will tell you one thing though. I read the whole thing. Mr. Amaar Khan won the debate, no questions asked. I am sure most, if not all readers, will tell you the same thing. Peace'

You were the one who brought up the whole notion of winning and losing, not me. Stop contradicting yourself and read what you wrote earlier before posting further responses :)

Contradiction Ibn Kammuna.

Submitted by Saadiq1977 (not verified) on Wed, 02/25/2009 - 23:27.

Contradiction Ibn Kammuna. First you say in post number 6:

'I will tell you one thing though. I read the whole thing. Mr. Amaar Khan won the debate, no questions asked. I am sure most, if not all readers, will tell you the same thing. Peace'

then you say, in post number 13:

'Its not about winning or losing a debate. Its about trying to ascertain the truth. '

'It is not about winning or losing a debate here. we are just trying to learn the truth. Okay.'

Can you not see the contradiction here!

Saadiq, Like Muhammad and the

Submitted by Ibn Kammuna (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 00:16.

Saadiq,
Like Muhammad and the Qur'an say:" Truth have been set apart from falsity" (I am just rewording here). Are you saying that Authentic hadiths from the mouth of Ayesha herself are not good enough for you? I bet its good enough for anyone who is looking for the truth, not just to debate and try to show that an Ex-Muslim like Amaar Khan is mistaken just because he left Islam.
Again, i am telling you this: Amaar Khan has left you in the dust. he won the debate. Do you know why? Because he is relying on authentic sources. Being an Ex-Muslim has nothing to do with it.
Keep lying to yourself Mr. Saadiq.
Have a good day brother.

Mr. Saadiq Muhammad, Your

Submitted by Sher Khan (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 01:05.

Mr. Saadiq Muhammad,

Your desperate attempt to defend the Profit of Islam is not only ridicules but an insult to humanity.

You quoted from ‘Prophet of Islam’, written by a Maulana Muhammad Ali:

“This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.”

It is safe to ascertain that quoting an author’s comment is nothing but endorsing the opinion of the author. So, it is obvious you believe Ayesha was only ten years old when she sat on Mohammed’s lap.

Fine!

Let’s assume for a moment, for the sake of giving you a little pleasure, Ayesha was indeed a ten years old girl when the Profit of Islam married her. Now, what is the difference between a six years and a ten years old girl? Are not both merely children?

If a twelve years old boy rubs his private parts with a ten years old girl, it will be considered an indecent act, but when a 52 yrs old haggard like Mohammed marry a ten years old girl is considered a perverted behavior. Not to mention that he already had dozens of wives and a few concubines in his harem.

Don’t you see the ugly picture of a bearded 52 years old man marrying a ten years old girl (in truth, which is only six years)? I don’t know about you, but should a 52 years old pervert wanted to marry my daughter at age ten, I would have tied up his thingy and hang him from a tree.

The reality is that most of the authentic hadith proudly presents Ayesha’s comment on this issue. She testified that she was only six years old when Mohammed married her and Mohammed had intercourse with her when she was nine. If you like, I can send you a scanned copy of the hadith where this (unacceptable word for a nine years old) “Intercourse” is mentioned.

I think FFI is simply wasting its space by displaying your deluded comments.

If you think you are a human, show some courage, and accept the brutal truth.

actually Sher Khan, she was 8

Submitted by Ibn Kammuna (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 01:55.

actually Sher Khan, she was 8 years and 9 months old when Muhammad, the 53 year old pervert, slept with her (you know, because they went by lunar calender). Thanks brother.

Saadiq, be a decent and honest man. Show character and admit defeat. I did change my views many times. New evidence should allow us to do that.There is nothing wrong with admitting defeat. It shows character actually.

Are moslems as a general rule

Submitted by proudkafir (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 05:47.

Are moslems as a general rule marrying off their daughters aged 9 years to 53 years old? If not why not? Bad moslems because the sunnah of leaky ,floppy dik mo is not beiing properly followed.If yes, let us see where they are and terminate them! We need Bad moslems who do not follow the sunnah of pedophile rapist mohammad and we do not need good piuos moslems as they tend to be very bad uncouth human beings!

Haha You know the funny part

Submitted by Komal (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 06:32.

Haha You know the funny part ... When was the first time I started doubting Islam? Two / three of my stupid devoted Mulsim friends passed me a post
abt Pedophelia and Mohammad and they asked me to ban it ... In doing so
what they actually did was -> they helped the word spread .... I wasn't
even aware what pedophelia means ... I checked the meaning from dictionary
then I read the article my friends had forwarded ... Then I read the Sahih hadiths
tooo....And I was really surprised .... I felt disgusted ( I thought to myself y am I
feeling disgusted whatever the prophet did must be right ... I tried to calm myself
...) Then the thought of my nine year old cousin came to my mind .... I couldn't imagine her getting married to a 50 + .No matter how religious he was .... Then
thankfully a few years later I stumbled across Ali Sina debate with the lady named Roach ... It took me 6-7 months to digest what I read here ...

And Yes forgot to say GOOD

Submitted by Komal (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 06:44.

And Yes forgot to say GOOD Job Amaar Khan (Y)

GOOD WORK Komal.Keep it

Submitted by proudkafir (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 06:46.

GOOD WORK Komal.Keep it up.The only hope is for all moslemahs to learn that allah haets women!
Allah says fart, donkey,dog and a woman anull the prayers of a pious moslem.Please spread these words of allah for all women in your place to see for themselves how vile this alla pimp is.He even instructs his pious bearded brain dead zombies to beat the crap out of women.In simple words islam is evil for all non moslems but eviler for women compared to men

I feel Sadiq Mohammad belongs

Submitted by silenzer (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 06:54.

I feel Sadiq Mohammad belongs to subcontinent. Firstly, he is defending a pedophile gangster who has been proven to be the worst narcissist the world have ever seen. Sadiq doesn't even understand how non-Arab Muslims are treated in Arab countries.

Sadiq has failed to quote proper sources to defend his wicked prophet. Secondary sources do not become the real sources. Muslims in the past had no problems in reciting the hadiths that describe the pedophilia of Muhammad, or his unholy relationship with Zainab. However, when people (kafirs) from other religions started questioning the behaviour of Muhammad, they jumped on to their feet to save their Prophet by any means. False references creeped up overnight. Dr. Shabbir Ahmed has even quoted a reference from 13th century to prove that Aisha was an adult at the time of marrying Mo. Sadiq, you have lost it badly.

I think Ali Sena should debate with Dr.Shabbir Ahmed, who is the moderator of the website http://www.ourbeacon.com. This guy doesn't believe in hadiths and has given a different translation of the Quranic verses. He has huge number of followers from India and Pakistan.

Congratulations Amaar Khan!!

Amaar Khan. Excellent

Submitted by BustedDivinity. (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 09:35.

Amaar Khan.

Excellent exegesis on the freedom to pedophilia in the less than holy quran (whatever holy means)

This Saadiq character is really so obtuse, one will think that a rational and morally sound grown up person will actually feel embarrassed discussing child molestation performed by his religious leader, well guess what, Saadiq is so deluded that the "shame and lack of dignity" in the whole issue does not even concern him.

The guy is actually thinking about writing another rebuttal as if it will take away a chip off the already abhorrent act of child molestation.

Saadiq, your argument and Amaar's are presented the way they appear because that's very close to what actual person to person verbal debates are done, you state your point then sit down while I take the stage and so it goes till the end, it amuses the audience more, get it?

If I were Saadiq who wants to appear as if he loves to research different countries' statistics on things, I would conduct a research on religion in relation to different countries and how they got evidence of their gods, that will surely let Saadiq know that his religion got the same type of god evidence as the rest, i.e no verifiable, testable, repeatable and universally approved evidence for homophobic gods or any other except the natural energy that drives/the unknown awe-inspiring nature, just don't jump to the god of the gap concept just because you are amazed, anybody can claim a deity through that method, and you or anybody with a another god won't be able to disprove him/her because your basis is not a known and certainly not a quantifiable substance, you better say I don't know and be contented with it..

Till you can prove Islam without circular logic, stop trying to defend the defenceless old dirty pedophile.

____________________________

Submitted by KhaliLF (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 15:14.

____________________________

Excellent Amar Khan..!!!

Let me just add something more to this. I posted this in the forum earlier, now it seems pertinent here:

I will start of with Sunan Al-Nasaee:

[u]Aisha said: Prophet married me when I was six years old and had sex with me when I was nine year old and I was playing with dolls.[Sunan Al-Nasaee: Vol. 6. Book of marriage: Page: 131][/u]

Aisha was an immature girl when Muhammad had sex with her for the first time, because hadith reveals she was playing with dolls while Muhammad started using (abusing) her for sex.
Reason for me to quote this from Sunan Al-Nasaee is many Muslims; only because of their stubbornness (and not because facts aren’t plain to them), vehemently argue, Aisha was just possessing dolls while Muhammad had sex with her. Arguments set out abroad like pubertal girls were permitted to possess dolls if not to play with them. Many hadiths parallel to this are there brazen in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim but not without leaving a loophole as they are not overt on whether Aisha was playing with dolls or was simply possessing them. I would urge readers to read those relevant hadiths in concert to match up with Nasaee; picture is there clear..!

[u]Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. [Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151] (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)[/u]

[u]Aisha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. [Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311][/u]

Two from the most authentic Sahih collections, dolls are common in both. Bukhari, the earlier one with a tag of Fateh-al-Bari to explain the Islamic jurisdiction on playing with dolls.., it was only permissible to young pre-pubertal girls.

Aisha was having her dolls with her when she had Muhammad entering upon her. Was she playing with them..? Very much a hocus pocus here. If she had to have them with her, if she took dolls with her, then what were these dolls meant for her? Was she preserving something as mementos? Such measures were not common at that time. She was playing with them as Nasaee reported. She took dolls with her because she wants to continue playing. Muhammad bedded her while she was a girl of playful age.

One more hadith, this time from Sunan Abu Dawud: Here it is:

[u]Narrated Aisha,: When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her. He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with Two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. [Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 41, Hadith 4914][/u]

Dolls...dolls...dolls... What do these dolls have to do here? In fact a lot; because in Islam dolls are not allowed to any mature adult, even pictures are not allowed at house as Muhammad prohibited them. Check [u]Sahih Bukhari. Book: 72 Hadiths 840-844.[/u]

There should be a special emphasize on the Abu Dawud hadith above. See in it Muhammad coming back from an expedition, narrators are doubtful over whether it was Tabuk or Khybar, an unnecessary mix up because there is no good reasons to doubt Khaybar in this case. We will be there at Tabuk shortly..,

So… Muhammad came back from Tabuk and saw his most favorite child bride with many of her dolls. Not what he used to see with her because one of them was archetypal of a myth. A Winged horse..!

Not to remind; we are on our way to reach the very conclusion, Aisha as an immature girl remained in the custody of Muhammad from nine to fifteen or longer than it. (All this time Muhammad was fouling a minor) According to Islamic norms, starting of menstruation guarantees pubertal status to girls. Aisha reached it at a very later time in her life. To pinpoint the juncture when Aisha had her first discharge, a little bit of history too is very much necessary so that we can discrete which is which.

*At the age of 49 Muhammad married Aisha who was only six then. It was before his Hijra (Emigration) to Medina. Almost 3 years prior to his journey. 619 AD.
He entered upon the girl (bedded her) after three years. Aisha was nine and was playing with dolls at that time (Sunan Al-Nasaee) 622 AD (first year of Hijra)

*Aisha remained pre-pubescent for a long time. For instance, her servant Barira calls her an immature young child even after the verses pertaining to Hijab has been revealed. Barira adds:”I have never seen anything in her (i.e. Aisha) which I would conceal, except that she is a young girl who sleeps leaving the dough of her family exposed so that the domestic goats come and eat it “ [Sahih Bukhari. 59:462] this remark was made by Barira after the revelation of verses of Hijab, five years after Hijra: 627 AD.

Notice the time lag. From 622 to 627 Aisha remained pre-pubescent. Nevertheless Muhammad continued to have fun with her all this time. Five years of holy paedophilic affair so far. As we move on:

*Expedition of Tabuk takes place eight years after Muhammad’s Hijra to Medina. 630 AD. We saw Muhammad coming back from the expedition and getting amused after seeing Aisha’s dolls. 3 more years to add now..! Aisha even at the age of 17 was not matured to withstand an old man who was 61 at that time. But .slowly…subtly.. She was moving ahead close to being a woman;

It is time to embark Sahih Hadiths. Let’s witness that remarkable event when the most favourite wife of Muhammad became a real woman shedding her past:

[u]Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad:
Aisha said, "We set out with Allah's Apostles in the months of Hajj, and (in) the nights of Hajj, and at the time and places of Hajj and in a state of Hajj. We dismounted at Sarif (a village six miles from Mecca). The Prophet then addressed his companions and said, "Anyone who has not got the Hadi and likes to do Umra instead of Hajj may do so (i.e. Hajj-al-Tamattu) and anyone who has got the Hadi should not finish the Ihram after performing ' Umra). (i.e. Hajj-al-Qiran). Aisha added, "The companions of the Prophet obeyed the above (order) and some of them (i.e. who did not have Hadi) finished their Ihram after Umra." Allah's Apostle and some of his companions were resourceful and had the Hadi with them, they could not perform Umra (alone) (but had to perform both Hajj and Umra with one Ihram). Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle came to me and saw me weeping and said, "What makes you weep, O Hantah?" I replied, "I have heard your conversation with your companions and I cannot perform the Umra." He asked, "What is wrong with you?' I replied, ' I do not offer the prayers (i.e. I have my menses).' He said, ' It will not harm you for you are one of the daughters of Adam, and Allah has written for you (this state) as He has written it for them. Keep on with your intentions for Hajj and Allah may reward you that." Aisha further added, "Then we proceeded for Hajj till we reached Mina and I became clean from my menses>>>[Sahih Bukhari. Volume 2, Book 26, Number 631]

(Hadith has been shortened)This is of an incident that involves Muhammad, Aisha and all of his wives. They were set out for Hajj, but Aisha stuck in the middle weeping…. what was the reason? Muhammad asks what’s wrong with her. Aisha replies she can not pray, because something has occurred. NOW: be very attentive to Muhammad’s reply: IT WILLl NOT HARM you, for you are one among the daughters of Adam and Allah has written it for them.

Aisha was having her first experience, because first experience of menstruation is always somewhat frightful or disturbing to women. Since it was the first time she experienced such, she should have frightened and started to weep. Muhammad does a good job here; consoling her, “Look my darling, menstruation is not harmful, but quite natural as all those females born to Adam should necessarily go through it.” If Aisha had any previous experience, Muhammad should not have used these consoling words! But he convinces his beloved wife "Menstruation is not harmful" Lesson from Muhammad for a girl who is having her first experience..!

Now, the question will be what was Aisha’s age at that time?

Muhammad performed only one hajj in his life. And it was 10 years after his Hijra to Medina. Exactly 2 years after Tabuk expedition. Aisha was 17 at Tabuk. Now, when she is setting out for Hajj along with her husband the lass has reached 19 years mark. And she is stuck on the way because she is there at last. Got to it., she has become an adult. [b]But not before leaving all those eight years behind she had to spend with a paedophile.[/b]

Thank you all for your time,
Khalil Fariel

Saadiq brother, How can any

Submitted by Mavan (not verified) on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 18:55.

Saadiq brother,
How can any sane person defend the practice of an old man marrying a child? Does it even matter if Aisha was 9, 12 or 15? The problem is Muhammed was an old sack.

I was told that my great great grand father married his wife when they were 8 and 3 respectively. My great grand father married when they were 12 and 8 respectively. My grandpa was 17 when he married my grandma at 13. These were cultural practices of the time and not related to religion. These people did not claim that they were the "best of creation" or "models for all times" nor claimed to be prophets of god. Moreover, it was not a case of an old man marrying a child. Parents used to marry off children early in those days so that they could arrest their promiscous behaviour. Note that even though marriage was early in these cases, it was not consummated until the woman came of age.

The problem with Muhammed, Islam and quran is that it follows a culturally backward practice but claims that it is a text book of eternal validity. The practice of child marriage can be abolished easily if it were just a cultural thing. But when it is given a religious approval it is not possible to eliminate it. That is the problem with Islam,

Islam pokes its nose into the affairs of man which should be best left to the prevailing culture of the society. Culture varies with time and some practices followed by people in the past are shunned by us. By giving a divine sanction to these practices we are creating a situation where the society cannot modernise. Islamic countries will never modernise as long as Islam rules there. It will be stuck in the 7th century Arabian culture for ever.

No one, prophet or otherwise has the rights to give rules of conduct for all eternity. Such a person is selfish and does not care for what happens to people of later times. Muslims( women and children) suffer today because one selfish person greedy for power and monopoly created laws that cannot change with times. Quran is an opportunistic text created merely for the benefit of Muhammed - to satisfy his lust for power, authority, money, women etc.

How can any sane person follow one of the most selfish guys who ever lived on this planet? Awake brother! Do not defend such stupid actions of your prophet. God has given u brains to think, to think and question anything and everything. Dont ever fall into the blind alley you are in now. Ask yourself - Why did the old man Muhammed claimimg to be the most perfect creation marry a child who was his grand daughter's age. Please do not fool yourself arguing whether Aishas age was 9 or 15 or whether she had menstruation or not.

When i initially spoke with

Submitted by Saadiq1977 (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 03:36.

When i initially spoke with Ali Sina about facilitating a debate between Amaar Khan and myself, he warned me about the type of response or greeting i would receive from the bloggers in here.
I have read many articles posted in here and although the are a lot of idiotic people who parade in here as if they are knowledgable, there are a few, like Amaar Khan who conduct themselves in a manner befitting an educated man. This is why i chose him to debate in the first place.
I am not expecting to Find people in here who are impartial and the comments posted here speak volumes to this fact. So do not be suprised when i tell all of you that your opinions mean absolutely nothing to me.
All of you have the privilage of reading this debate as i would have preferred a private debate, facilitated by an unbiased, neutral third party.
I am saving this debate and when the time comes, i will send it, in its entirety to an unbiased third person party who is familiar with and has extensive experience in judging and facilitating debates. They will read the transcript carefully and will write a final analysis on this debate. This analysis will be sent to the editors of FFI for publication. I have sent this proposal to Ali Sina and i await his response.
My goal here is not to convert people to islam, it is to have this site shut down. Ali Sina said if one of his claims could be disproved, he would shut down this site. This is why i insisted on having an unbiased third party judge this debate. Once their verdict is read, there is no room for argument. If they side wit Amaar then that's it, i will not push the issue further, but if they side with me, then close the site down.
I have written my counter rebuttal and will send it soon.

Sadiq Don't be a cry baby

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 04:48.

Sadiq

Don't be a cry baby and start calling other people names just because they don't find some one justifying padephilia as a virtue. It is a virtue amogst muslims, certainly not among the free people of this world.
You wanna close this site down???? Why is that ?? Are you scared that your paedophile prophet will be exposed.
Throughout the debate you have resorted to circular reasoning and producing docs from second hand sources. Just bcos FFI is giving you the opportunity to defend your paedophile prophet, don't get so high headed. You Islamic websites don't even allow us to ask questions, let alone post debates.
Muslims kill people for making cartoons, and you get pissed what a few people have to say about your defence of your prophet paedophilic tendencies. Wow! this is wonderful.

What would constitute "an

Submitted by Ibn Kammuna (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 04:49.

What would constitute "an unbiased third party"? Are we, the readers, not good enough for you? Probably not. But again, you refused the testimony of Ayesha herself when she said she was six years old.
Good luck to you brother Saadiq

Sadiq How do we know that

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 04:54.

Sadiq

How do we know that the agencies that you choose will be unbaised? I mean you could be on the payrolls of the Sauids with enough money to buy people. The question is that how do we trust a Muhammadan? It would be like sticking our head into a bettle nest...
So rest asssured we are not going to accept any results that come from you...

IK Sadiq is a Muslim, he

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 04:55.

Sadiq is a Muslim, he can't be trusted. I think this fellow is well funded by some external agencies.

If you’re a muslim, here’s

Submitted by Bliss (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 05:01.

If you’re a muslim, here’s how to win any argument:

1. Accuse accuse the person of lying and ignorance. Tell the person to read “authentic” Muslim websites and texts. Say that critics of Islam are “so-called” experts. Say that once a person “learns” about the “real” Islam, he/she will understand how beautiful and peaceful it is.

2. Accuse the person of racism or islamophobia (This is one of the best tactics!). Say they are “filled with hate” (this works really well with Liberals!).

Restrict your arguments to a specific subject (How Muslims are persecuted and misunderstood). Generalize a lot. Never suggest that a person examine both sides of the issue (that is, compare arguments from anti-Islamic sites with those from Muslims experts). Never refer to the hate and violence Muslims do. Say that the actions of Muslims have nothing to do with Islam.

3. Say that the problem is that Muslims today are not practicing the “Original Islam” of Mohammed and the glorious era of the ‘Four Righteous Caliphs’ that followed him (Do not mention the hate and violence that Mohammad preached and practiced and do not mention that 3 out of the 4 so-called Righteous Caliphs were murdered by Muslims in a fifty year orgy of conquest, greed, violence and rivalry that ended at battle of Kerbala - called the Ashura - with Muslims fighting Muslims and the heads of Mohammad’s grandson and even infant great-grandson and 70 others being carried in bags as trophies by the victorious Muslim army). Tell them that Islam is really peaceful!

4. Say that any verse from the Koran that portrays Islam negatively is “out of context”.

Tell them it doesn’t really mean what it says. Also, insist that any tradition that says that Mohammad did very bad things is “weak” or forged, or that it has no isnad (chain of narration) even if it has a long isnad and Muslims constantly quote from this same source.

5. Tell people that any ‘nice’ or ‘peaceful’ (or earlier) verse in the Koran is valid for everywhere and all time. Any ‘kill’ and ‘hate’ verse has limited application and can only be understood by an expert or in relation to another verse 56 pages away.

6. Accuse Christianity and other religions as being “just as bad” (mention the Crusades). Say that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Say that Islam is the fastest growing religion on Mars too, and the rest of the universe.

7. Claim that Muslims are injustly persecuted (never mention 1200 years of jihad against infidels, the treatment of non-Muslims in Islamic societies or current events). Mention the classical era when Islamic societies led the world in science, medicine and philosophy (Do not mention this was 700 years ago and that much of it was based upon ancient Greek works or influenced by the hated ‘Jewws’ living in those countries, and the rest was stolen)

8. Explain that jihad means “inner struggle” (like a diet plan or giving up smoking!) and not “holy war”. Tell them that Islam says fighting can only be in self-defense. If they ask about all those raids, explain that Mohammad went on 26 self-defense expeditions, captured a lot of self-defense loot and self-defense slaves and killed a lot of people in self-defence in the early morning and night self-defense attacks. He even let his men rape women in self-defense at Banu-Mustaliq. If they question that last statement, suggest that maybe the women accused Mohammad’s men of being ‘gay’ and they had to prove themselves. (Note: It may be wise to work more on this answer!)

9. Blame all current problems in Islamic societies on (choose one or more…) the Jews, Hindus,Christians,Jews again, the Crusades, the USA, Atheism, Israel, Colonialism, Hollywood, Bush, the Pope, Vatican, Capitalism, racism, poverty, sexuality, discrimination, translations, the media, the Neocons, Right-wing radio talk shows, Communism, the Romans, women, Zionists, culture, Imperialism, islamophobes, “people filled with hate”, stereotypes, facism, the Cold War, the War on Terror, ignorance, education, lack of education, misguided education, despair, lack of hope, the suffering of the Palestinian people, bad hair, cartoons, teddy bears and Bugs Bunny. Stress that Muslims are innocent victims of circumstances, always.

10. If the discussion is about women, say that Islam “protects and honors” women. Say that “Islam has given women all her rights”. Point out the immorality in Western culture. Say that most of the people that convert to Islam are women. (Never talk about what the Quran and hadith say about women, except for 4 specific verses and do not mention that Mohammad himself said women are ‘deficient in intelligence’ and beat his wife). If they talk about the status of Muslim women everywhere, say that it is because Muslims do not follow Islam. Tell them it is “cultural”.

11. Say that a small minority of extremists have hijacked Islam, and they are not ‘real’ Muslims. Explain that just because a person says the shahada (profession of faith), observes the 5 pillars of Islam, goes to the mosque every Friday, has memorized half of the Quran, wears a beard, and is named ‘Mohammud’ - this does not mean that he is a ‘real’ Muslim. (Suggest that the terrorist, who knows, may really be a Scientologist, a Presbyterian,or a Rotarian pretending to be a Muslim). Oh yes, if Muslims do hate and violence, say that they are being ‘used’ and ‘manipulated’ by (see list in #9 of candidates to blame for manipulating innocent Muslims).

12. If the person brings up issues relating to words and actions of Mohammad, say that you are offended. Say that we should not apply contemporary standards of morality and conduct to the teachings of the ‘eternal’ Quran and the actions of Islam’s prophet. Tell them “everybody” did “it” back then. Say that Mohammad was “a mercy for all mankind”. If he/she continues to ask about those deeds, make a few threats. Another possible idea is to ask the person to draw a picture of Mohammad on an old piece of paper, then say you are offended and attack the vile kafir infidel!

13. Say that it (whatever) is because they (whoever) don’t understand the original message in Arabic. Tell them you can’t understand the real meaning of Islam and the Quran unless you speak Arabic. Another good idea is to use a lot of cute Arabic words to confuse the person. It also makes the Muslim seem smarter and/or an expert on Islam.

14. Quote the verse “who kills a single person, it is as if he killed all of mankind” to prove how peaceful Islam really is (Do not mention that the phrase is incomplete and you have omitted the first five words, and that it was plagiarized from the scriptures of the evil Jews).

15. Say that any problems in the Muslim world are because the US, Europe and the West support brutal, corrupt Arab regimes (Do not mention that all regimes in Muslim Middle East are undemocractic, brutal and corrupt). Say that Muslims are being used (or exploited or deceived) by the evil colonialists and/or imperialists. This is a good time to bring up Uncle Benny and say he was created in a CIA lab and so the so-called radical Islamists are Americas’ fault (Use the name “Bin Laden” which is what infidels call him).

16. Another good idea is to blame anything and everything on the “Enemies of Islam”. Take the Ashura, for example. When Hussain, the grandson of Mohammad was killed on the battle field, Muslim site after site says that he was martyred while fighting the “Enemies of Islam” instead of mentioning that it was actually a rival Muslim army and a battle for power and treasure. This event was the climax and start of the great Sunni-Shiite feud and one of the reasons why these two Muslim groups are still killing each other 1350 years later. Even so both sides blame it on the “Enemies of Islam”.

17. When something bad happens say it is a “conspiracy” against Islam. For example, when an old British teacher working in Sudan lets her school children name a teddy bear “Mohammed” the Sudanese Imams immediately called for her death and said it was all part of a Western conspiracy against Islam. As found on Muslim sites, Palestinian children are dying of poisoning because the “yahood” (Jews) have a conspired to sell clothing with rat poison infused into the dye. It is a well-known fact that infidels stay up all night, every night, just plotting against Islam. Oh yes, when using the word “conspiracy” also include the words “Zionist” or “Jewish” to emphasize the cunning and evil nature of the plot.

18. Say that Western societies are not doing enough to adapt to Muslims and to accomodate their customs and beliefs. Tell them that if Non-Muslims are really “tolerant” then will recognize the unique cultural issues of Muslims and respect their customs even if these are contrary to the host countries traditions and laws. Explain that a true multicultural society must recognize the right of Muslims to have their own laws (sharia) and control of their own lives and even of the people and neighborhoods they live in. Tell them that things like female genital mutilation, honor killings and forced marriages are expressions of this cultural heritage and are of no concern to infidels. This is necessary, as the Archbishop of Canterbury says, because Muslims often do not feel “comfortable” with the laws of the country they live in.

19. Blame it on the weather. I mean ‘good’ weather. The Reuters news agency tells us, regarding the February 2008 “Youth” riots in Denmark, that “Police could give no reason (for the riots), but said that unusually mild weather and the closure of schools for a winter break might have contributed.

20. Once again, remember that Muslims “are the best of people” and Mohammad is a “Mercy for all mankind”. Keep thinking this. Never doubt; never question. If there is an issue it must be understood in light of these two sacred and eternal truths. Don’t let facts get in the way of feelings. If something appears to be wrong or bad, it can only be a work of evil infidels or a misunderstanding. There must be an explanation even if it is weird, really weird. The problem cannot be Islam’s fault so it must be the work of (insert name of evil non-Muslim group here). Explain that the rules of conduct that Muslims demand for others do not apply to Islam, because it is “special”.

21. If all else fails, assume a zombie-like attitude and start saying the Qanoot-e-Naazilah prayer in a low, intense voice (in Arabic!). Hiss a little between lines. Let the infidel know you a more than just a little crazy. If you have a knife take it out and start testing the blade with your thumb. Roll your eyes, foam at the mouth (twitching is good, too!). Stand up suddenly and start yelling “Allah Akhbar”. Do this ten times as loud as possible. You have won the argument! Note that all of the above explanations — except the last two points — are based upon actual answers and justifications from Muslim sites and web commentaries.

to settle the concerns of

Submitted by Saadiq1977 (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 05:33.

to settle the concerns of those in here i will say that any third person party will be agreed upon by ali Sina and myself. i have looked at possible candidates from harvard university as well as from oxford in the uk. when i Find one it will be brought to Ali Sina for approval.
remember that what you ad above is not a complete debate, its only an introduction to what is going to come. when it is over the whole debate will be sent for review and judgement by one who is a professional and has experience in facilitating debates.
if the bloggers had a little mo respect for those who come here in opposition of ali Sina, then there might have been someone in which ali Sina and myself can agree on in here but that is not the case

Why should we have respect

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 05:57.

Why should we have respect for people who believe that paedophilia is a virtue and that its okay to marry a one year old kid? People who support such nonsense are mentally unfit with some bodering to the edge of criminality. Expect my respect from us for people like you.
Besides this is not about Ali Sina, he is not a prophet nor do we believe in prophets. You are doing to save your prophhet's reputation while we are doing this to show the truth. There are many issues on which Ali Sina and many of the members differ, quite unlike you muslims who accept everything that your prophet said as the word of God, lol. And you talk about showing respect.

Ask your brothers who have attacked inocent people, raped women, buttered millions, burnt flags, demolished buildings in just for the sake a cartoon. A muslim talking about tolerance is like a big joke..........

Sadiq we won't trust

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 05:58.

Sadiq

we won't trust anything that you give to us, Ali Sina is not our prophet that his judgement will be final and abiding on us.
We are free thinking people here, and I will never trust any1 you bring for discussion, even if Ali Sina agrees to him.

@ Sadiq ... Tell me one thing

Submitted by Komal (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 06:58.

@ Sadiq ... Tell me one thing Can't u see everything is from authentic sources(no one here made it up) ? Y are you trying so hard .... Y look like a fool to every1 ??? Y not just accept the FACT as it is ?

Sadiq is finding it hard to

Submitted by rationalist (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 07:50.

Sadiq is finding it hard to digest that his arguments are a total failure. Muslims protected the image of their Pedophile prophet for so long. But not anymore. The arrival of internet has destroyed Islam and Mohammad for good. I have forwarded this debate to at least 200 friends, including Muslims. They will have forwarded it to many more. It is a chain. There will come a time when all non-Muslims will associate pedophilia with Muhammad, whenever his name comes up.

Saadiq bro, I dont see any

Submitted by Mavan (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 08:40.

Saadiq bro,

I dont see any reason why you think you have scored any points in this debate. Amaar has a well researched article providing dozens of quotations from authentic sources. On the other hand, you not only could not provide any authentic source, but instead cited some Mohammed Ali or modern apologists as evidence. You would have to bribe a third party heavily to give the verdict in your favour, Even if you should find an authentic hadith reference you must still explain how they override the numerous references( regarding the age of Aiysha) given by Amaar.

Before proceeding further, please clarify what are the sources you accept as evidence. I think it is of primary importance that the two sides accept certain common sources for the debate to make any sense. If you accept only the quran and the words of modern apologists, then how are you going to find the contexts for the contextless quran? Are you going to say that non quranic sources are valid only if they are "nice looking"?

The debate is only of academic importance, Even if you succeed in proving that Aiysha's age was 15 or more, you should still think over the matter. Winning or losing the debate is not everything. She is still very much like his grand daughter. A few years here and there does not change facts,

Sadiq you need some rest

Submitted by ibrahim (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 09:00.

Sadiq you need some rest after this fiasco. Afterall its not everyday that you get to see the truth, considering that you are a Muslim. You need time to come out of the first glare that the truth has put into your eyes.

and yet muslims will try to

Submitted by focussed (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 10:26.

and yet muslims will try to justify that beating is supposed to be light when their allah's favorite gay partner "mad mo" caused pain to the child. He plays mind games with a kid and yet muslims will not accept that mad mo was a crazy lunatic.

focussed That's a good focus

Submitted by BustedDivinity. (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 12:41.

focussed

That's a good focus on things man, a 9yr old is surely going to be devastated both physically and mentally from the any careless old man with a wicked sexual agenda, too bad some humans aren't humane enough to say it is wrong when and where fit.

again a good dispaly of pedo

Submitted by samir (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 13:07.

again a good dispaly of pedo mo logic adopted by his cultist. Saadiq Muhammad simply doesn't reply or nicely avoids the point put here.
1. Where is the low age limit? This guy answers with laws of other countries. We don't want laws from the present day countries, but the reference in gods manual delivered by mo. Less than age of menses means nothing to Saadiq Muhammad. Instead of going to madarasa go to real school. Instead of quaran, open book of mathematics and logic.
2. If we agree Saadiq Muhammad's logic that menses are the decisive point for marriage and mentioned in quaran, then Issue a fatwa against Saadiq Muhammad and stone him to death. Menses are now happening at lower ages. Quaran is written 620AD and women those days used to have menses at later age. This means quaran is not suitable at this age. It is not the final message of god and mo is not final prophet and not valid till doomsday.

Mr. Saadiq I am a university

Submitted by Ibn Kammuna (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 14:02.

Mr. Saadiq
I am a university scholar myself. Does that make you feel better when i tell you you lost the debate? In fact some of my published research in my field of expertise, is quoted by other researchers and was built upon. So, now tell me, why do I need to go to Harvard or any other place to judge that you lost the debate. I am a university professor myself. Will you accept my judgement when I tell you you lost the debate for good. What more than Ayesha herself telling you in many authentic hadiths that she was six years old when she got married? Would a Harvard scholar change that, just because he/she is from Harvard? You really need to wake up man. One has to be objective a little bit about things.

Every moslem from the

Submitted by proudkafir (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 14:44.

Every moslem from the subcontinent dreams of marrying off his daughter aged 6 to an old syphilitic old Arab cretin to earn brownie points from the pimp allah.
The rasool showed them the way forwards

Mr sadique . sorry for late

Submitted by amaar khan (not verified) on Fri, 02/27/2009 - 19:10.

Mr sadique .
sorry for late reply. my grandmother died this week. therefore i was not in the condition to write any thing.i know there are some people in this forum who are little bit harsh to Muslims. but they not right to their place because they think that Muslims understand well when they are ridiculed.
well
i can not understand you that which kind of judge or "third party" you want?
i advise you to be a judge yourself and check out what i have written..
regards
ammar

Amaar kahn. i am indeed sorry

Submitted by Saadiq1977 (not verified) on Sat, 02/28/2009 - 05:30.

Amaar kahn. i am indeed sorry to hear about the passing of your grandmother. It is indeed a trial and tribulation in our lives when we loose a loved one. Although we may hold to different views on life we do all agree that life is precious and death is hard to digest, especially when it is one we are close to. i know that you may not believe in my faith and its tennants, but i will pray for you, none the less.

When this debate is done i will reflect upon it and see what, if anything i have learned. all things happen for a reason, and this is no exception. i have finished my counter rebuttal and will send it for publication. like i said, i hope the editors here can add it to this thread so it is easy to find, for those who wish to read on.

Take your time in responding, as this is a hard time in life for you right now. When you are ready, then make the rebutal and send it .

Take care and all the best.
SAADIQ

I was reading through this

Submitted by Stienburger (not verified) on Sat, 02/28/2009 - 05:56.

I was reading through this particular website when I came across this debate between Saadiq Muhammad and Amar Khan. This particular debate captured my attention because both speakers have demonstrated the ability to debate with one another, without resorting to insults and slander. I do commend both speakers because it would appear as if they are able to do, what many in here have failed to do; hold a debate that has maintained a level of respect and integrity.

I had no intention of registering with this website, but felt compelled to when I saw the call for a third person party to critique this debate. I would like to offer myself as the one to take on this task. I am not a Muslim, nor do I perscribe to any organized religion. For those of you who want to view my educational cedentials, visit my profile. Iwould encourage Saadiq and Amar to view them as well. If the two of you agree to my proposal, then let me know by posting your response on this site.

Warmest Regards
W.S.

P.S.
I have read the article, by Amar Khan that sparked this debate and have read this debate, so I am familiar with the content and the argument presented by both sides.

I am not sure how this site

Submitted by Saadiq1977 (not verified) on Sat, 02/28/2009 - 06:05.

I am not sure how this site works Stienburger, but i can't vview your credentials. you appear to be an honest person, thus far and I am suprised that there is someone in here who appears to be an unbiased person. can you please post any credentials you feel are important so i can see them. Unless someone here can tell me how to view your profile

Comment 47 :@ 5.56 am an

Submitted by rationalist (not verified) on Sat, 02/28/2009 - 07:16.

Comment 47 :@ 5.56 am an unknown person called Stienburger leaves a comment requesting the moderator of FFI to become a judge for the ongoing debate between Sadiq and Amaar Khan.

Comment 48: @ 6.05 am, precisely 9 minutes after comment 47 was posted, Saadiq trusts Stienburger as a suitable person for judging this debate. Any smell of Al-taqiyya here???

Stienburger is set up by Saadiq. Ali Sena beware of it!! Muslims can stoop to any level to cheat infidels. We have seen this in India.

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