Javed ahmad Ghamdi’s attempts of reformation

Hinduism condemns idolaters and nature worshipers

Hindu Scriptures about God:

"The Formless Supreme Spirit that pervades the universe can have no material representation, likeness or image." (Yajur-Veda 32:3)

"O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him alone". (Rig-Veda 8:1:1)

"He is bodiless and pure." (Yajur-Veda 40:8)

"There is no likeness of Him." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19)

"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20)

"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9)

Veda and Gita condemn idol and nature worship:

"They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakrti -- the material cause of the world -- in place of the All-pervading God, but those who worship visible things born of the prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time." (Yajur Veda 40:9)

"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures." (Bhagavad Gita 7:20)

"Worshippers of the celestial controllers go to the celestial controllers, the worshippers of the ancestors go to the ancestors, and the worshippers of the ghosts go to the ghosts, but My devotees come to Me, and are not born again." (Gita 9:25)

Guru Granth Sahib has vehemently condemned idol-worship:

"The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord and are going the wrong way. As Narad instructed so worship they idols. They are blind, dumb and the blindest of the blind. The ignorant fools take stones and worship them. Those stones when they themselves sink, how shall they ferry thee across?" (Guru Granth Sahib, Nanak, P.556)

"The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Guru Granth Sahib, Ram Das, P.1264)

Many great Hindu scholars including Raja Rammohan Roy opposed idol-worship. All the religions including Hinduism condemn idol-worship!

Hats off to Mr. Ghamidi. He is a great man and has all my respect and well wishes. In his place I would not have done anything different.

It's not mandatory for a Muslim to believe in ALL the Hadiths literally as they are not considered to be the Revelation from God by any Muslim Sect. Hadiths were compiled long after the death of Prophet Muhammad, and many of the sayings were invented in the name of Prophet Muhammad to suit their desires. Yet even Hadiths are far superior to other scriptures like Bible, Vedas, etc.!

Why Islam: From Dr. Laurence B. Brown to all seekers of truth

Let's talk frankly. Almost never do non-Muslims study Islam until they have first exhausted the religions of their exposure. Only after they have grown dissatisfied with the religions familiar to them, meaning Judaism, Christianity and all the fashionable "-isms" - Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism (and, as my young daughter once added, "tourism") - do they consider Islam.

Perhaps other religions do not answer the big questions of life, such as "Who made us?" and "Why are we here?" Perhaps other religions do not reconcile the injustices of life with a fair and just Creator. Perhaps we find hypocrisy in the clergy, untenable tenets of faith in the canon, or corruption in the scripture. Whatever the reason, we perceive shortcomings in the religions of our exposure, and look elsewhere. And the ultimate "elsewhere" is Islam.

Now, Muslims would not like to hear me say that Islam is the "ultimate elsewhere." But it is. Despite the fact that Muslims comprise one-fourth to one-fifth of the world's population, non-Muslim media smears Islam with such horrible slanders that few non-Muslims view the religion in a positive light. Hence, it is normally the last religion seekers investigate.

Another problem is that by the time non-Muslims examine Islam, other religions have typically heightened their skepticism: If every "God-given" scripture we have ever seen is corrupt, how can the Islamic scripture be different? If charlatans have manipulated religions to suit their desires, how can we imagine the same not to have happened with Islam?

The answer can be given in a few lines, but takes books to explain. The short answer is this: There is a God. He is fair and just, and He wants us to achieve the reward of paradise. However, God has placed us in this worldly life as a test, to weed out the worthy from the unworthy. And we will be lost if left to our own devices. Why? Because we don't know what He wants from us. We can't navigate the twists and turns of this life without His guidance, and hence, He has given us guidance in the form of revelation.

Sure, previous religions have been corrupted, and that is why we have a chain of revelation. Ask yourself: why would God send another revelation if the preceding scriptures were still pure? Only if preceding scriptures were corrupted would God need to send another revelation, to keep mankind on the straight path of His design.

So we should expect preceding scriptures to be corrupted, and we should expect the final revelation to be pure and unadulterated. If impure, it too is due to be replaced, for we cannot imagine a loving God leaving us astray. What we can imagine is God giving us a scripture, and men corrupting it; God giving us another scripture, and men corrupting it again … and again, and again. Until God sends a final revelation He promises to preserve until the end of time.

Muslims consider this final revelation to be the Holy Qur'an. You consider it … worth looking into. So let us return to the title of this article: Why Islam? Why should we believe that Islam is the religion of rruth, the religion that possesses the pure and final revelation?

Oh, just trust me.

Now, how many times have you heard that line? A famous comedian used to joke that people of different cities cuss one another out in different ways. In Chicago, they cuss a person out this way, in Los Angeles they cuss a person out that way, but in New York they just say, "Trust me."

So don't trust me - trust our Creator. Read the Qur'an; read books and study this website. But whatever you do, get started, take it seriously, and pray for our Creator to guide you.

Your life may not depend on it, but your soul most definitely does.

leveltruth dot org

Oh! hello AMIN, good to see you again with your nonsense. Now what is your problem is some Hindus wanna worship Idols? I mean they are not exactly looking froward to crooks like Zaki Naki and their stupid crooks like you to teach them what to worship.
And Hadiths are superior to the Bible, Vedas and the other texts, lol. You know what even a comic strip written by the worst writter will be a million times more entertaining than that Qur'an. The Qur'an is just a load of nonsense, full of idiotic statements and absolutely confusing.
The only part that is clear is where the commands for killing infidels are given
Now tell us, who the hell are you to say which Hadith is Sahih and which is Kamzoor? huh! as though you are an Ulema in Islam. Moreover even the Qur'an was written atleast 100 years after that Pedophile was killed by the poison that Ayesha gave him. So why believe in it either.

$ 1 trillion reward for any Muslim who can disprove the allegations against Mo..

Hi Ali Sina

This one is for you, can you please tell me as to why you approve of Ghamidi? The reformation that he is proposing consists of lying big time about Islam. Do we really want to deal with a liar. I mean cmmon Ali, someday some crazy lunatic discoverers the Hadiths and this fellow will be declared as heretic.

Krishna’s extreme hatred and foul language against the unbelievers (i.e., non-Hindus) in Gita (these are not my words. so, if anybody gets offended, s/he shouldn’t blame me):

"The evil doers, the ignorant, the lowest persons who are attached to demonic nature, and whose power of discrimination has been taken away by divine illusive power (Maya) do not worship or seek Me." (Gita 7:15)

"The irrational, the faithless, and the disbeliever (atheist) perishes. There is neither this world, nor the world beyond, nor happiness for the disbeliever." (Gita 4:40)

"Whatever is done without faith - whether it is sacrifice, charity, austerity, or any other act - is useless. It has no value here or hereafter, O Arjuna." (Gita 17:28)

"The agent who is impassioned, attached to the fruits of their work, greedy, violent, impure, and is affected by joy and sorrow is called passionate. The undisciplined, vulgar, stubborn, wicked, malicious, lazy, depressed, and procrastinating agent is called ignorant." (Gita 18:27-28)

"There are only two types (or castes) of human beings in this world: The divine, or the wise (believer); and the demonic, or the ignorant (disbeliever). The divine has been described at length, now hear from Me about the demonic, O Arjuna. Persons of demonic nature do not know what to do and what not to do. They neither have purity nor good conduct nor truthfulness. They say: The world is unreal, without a substratum, without a God, and without an order. Sexual union of man and woman alone and nothing else causes the world. Adhering to this wrong atheist view, these degraded souls - with small intellect and cruel deeds - are born as enemies for the destruction of the world. Filled with insatiable desires, hypocrisy, pride, and arrogance; holding wrong views due to delusion; they act with impure motives. Obsessed with endless anxiety lasting until death, considering sense gratification their highest aim, convinced that sense pleasure is everything; Bound by hundreds of ties of desire and enslaved by lust and anger; they strive to obtain wealth by unlawful means for the fulfillment of sensual pleasures. They think: This has been gained by me today, I shall fulfill this desire, I have this much wealth, and will have more wealth in the future; That enemy has been slain by me, and I shall slay others also. I am the Lord. I am the enjoyer. I am successful, powerful, and happy; I am rich and born in a noble family. Who is equal to me? I shall perform sacrifice, I shall give charity, and I shall rejoice. Thus deluded by ignorance; Bewildered by many fancies; entangled in the net of delusion; addicted to the enjoyment of sensual pleasures; they fall into a foul hell. Self-conceited, stubborn, filled with pride and intoxication of wealth; they perform service only in name, for show, and not according to scriptural injunction. These malicious people cling to egoism, power, arrogance, lust, and anger; and hate Me who dwells in their own bodies and those of others. I hurl these haters, cruel, sinful, and mean people into the cycles of rebirth in the womb of demons again and again. O Arjuna, entering the wombs of demons birth after birth, the deluded ones sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me." (Gita 16:6-20)

Peace-loving and tolerant God indeed! Hindus never read their own holy books. They only learn in their Asram how to attack Islam and Muslims.

Kill the killers of the cow!

More or less six billion people of the World are in Great Danger from Hindus due to eating Beef.

Kill the killers of the cow with the piece of lead:

"If thou destroy a cow of ours… We pierce thee with this piece of lead…" (Atharva-Veda I.16.4)

Those who steal the milch-cow's milk should be beheaded, tortured, and cursed:

"The fiend who steals the milch-cow's milk away, O Agni, tear off the heads of such with fiery fury…. If one would glut him with the biesting, Agni, pierce with thy flame his vitals as he meets thee. Let the fiends drink the poison of the cattle; may Aditi cast off the evildoers. May the God Savitar give them up to ruin, and be their share of plants and herbs denied them." (Rig-Veda 10:87:16)

Unless Hindus can prove that in their claimed Holy Book, there is some word to save the Global World without forcing others to change their religion or faith, they should leave their religion and look for some other claimed Holy Book.

A_MIM,
you cannot justify violence in islam by quoting other religions. Two wrongs don't make a right.
While hindus can critisize their own religion and survive, can muslims do the same without security or anonymity? Look how taslima nasreen or salam rushdie were/are treated? and that is the difference between islam and other religions..
Besides,
you keep contradicting yourself. Sometimes you say hindus worship millions of gods and sometimes only one formless god. Merely cut and paste does not make a good debater..

How many hindus go and behead people for such reasons? how many hindus go and blow up themselves and justify it using their holy scriptures?
How many hindus go and kill/suppress muslims and justify that based on their holy scriptures?
the answer is none and yet you wont give up . You are behaving like a perfect retard.

Well Ibrahim, I think Ghamidi would be very useful in that he is dulling the wahabism style islam that SA is exporting. I've seen utube of "undercover mosque" (or some title like that) where some undercover reporters posed as muslims and infiltrate that mosque in UK (Greenlane mosque or something like that) with a hidden camera.

In one incident, in a muslima quran study class, the srudy leader asked something like, "Ok ladies, And what do we do with homosexuals when we have Sharia Law?" And her flock replies, "Throw him off the highest mountain." Another voice concures, "Yes that's right, throw him off the mountain."
"And what do we do with the murtad?" "Kill him", "Kill him"
"Yes ladies, you are righ. Very good"- she congratulates them like students when they give the correct answere.

(See, they are aready preparing for the day when they take over.)

So Ghamidi is good for thowing much confusion into the mix and buying us all more valuable time to prepare ourselves.

Hindu Purohit planned Israel-based Hindu govt-in-exile, support from Thai contacts: ATS chargesheet today

Smita Nair: indianexpress Jan 20, 2009

Mumbai : The Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad chargesheet in the Malegaon blast case claims that as per statements from the accused the town was singled out for the blast as “it was the ideal place where the Muslim community crowd was the maximum” and that prime accused Lt Col Prasad Purohit had told fellow conspirators it was time to set up a parallel, Hindu government-in-exile which could operate out of Israel and ensure a completely sashastra (armed) India.

Purohit, according to the chargesheet, promised “all logistic help” with finances from several quarters and support from some of his contacts in Thailand.

The ATS chargesheet, which includes two important confession statements, statements of witnesses under Section 164, laptop records, telephonic records, detailed SMSes and financial transactions across states, will be filed tomorrow in the designated MCOCA court chaired by sessions judge Y D Shinde.

The ATS will tell the court how a group called Abhinav Bharat became a “front organisation” for a conspiracy which led to an explosion at 9.26 pm on September 29, 2008 at Bhikku Chowk, Malegaon. While all eleven accused have been charged with conspiracy, logistics and execution of the blast, the key roles, according to the ATS, were those of Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur and Sudhakar Dardwivedi alias Dayanand Pandey.

This will be the first case where a probe has been able to reach the conspirators — unlike other cases where only those who planted bombs have been arrested. In this case, the alleged bomb planters — Sameer Dange, Ramji Kalsangra — and Pravin Patil, another on the wanted list, remain at large. Patil also used the cover name of Mutalik and is a close aide of Purohit.

While the forensic finding of the chassis and engine number of the motorcycle used in the blast — it was a Gujarat registration number GJ-05-1920, owned by Pragya Singh Thakur — led the ATS to Gujarat, it was the statements of witnesses and the forensic report that helped the ATS build a strong case.

The ATS chargesheet has relied heavily on the statement of Sudhakar Chaturvedi (37), the last to be arrested, who said Purohit had called him on September 17, asking him to give the keys of his house in Deolali to a person named Pawar. According to the ATS, Pawar handed the keys to Ramji Kalsangra who along with some others used the house to assemble the bomb that was eventually used in Malegaon.

The ATS team took a picture of Ramji to the locality where Chaturvedi stayed. Two witnesses identified him and confirmed that Ramji did come to the house. A search of the house revealed remains of items used in making the bomb — this was verified by a forensic team. Evidences include recordings from the laptop of Sudhakar Dardwivedi which also has footage of various meetings.

Of the arrested, it is Rakesh Dataram Dhavde’s involvement in the conspiracy that led the ATS to slap MCOCA charges against all ten accused. Pragya Singh’s telephonic conversations recorded with accused Shyam Sahu immediately after the blasts will be included in the chargesheet.

According to the ATS, the Abhinav Bharat, a group founded on June 12, 2006 in Raigad where Shivaji was coronated, initially had retired Major Ramesh Upadhyay in the role of working president. Later, under the control of Purohit, it became the “front for an agenda of creating a Hindu Rajya”.

While the “anger and the determination” to create a parallel government which “gives power to Hindus” can be seen in the records of the many meetings that transpired between the accused, the ATS says that it was at a meeting in Bhopal where the conspiracy for Malegaon was hatched. Purohit was said to have convinced the group that the time had come for a parallel government — and he detailed the idea of a bomb blast.The group, according to many statements of the accused, was told about possible safe houses in Israel from where the conspirators could operate once their ideology took root and their numbers increased.

According to the ATS, Pragya Singh promised “two of her men” from Gujarat. Upadhyay and Pune-based Ajay Rahirkar played key roles in logistics, conspiracy meetings and finances while Sudhakar and Sameer Kulkarni, the ATS says, were active foot soldiers of Abhinav Bharat who were paid a monthly sum of Rs 5,000 and were called ‘Chanakyas’.

MANGALORE PUB ATTACK ON WOMEN

Pub culture will not be allowed: Yeddyurappa

Karnataka Chief Minister BS Yeddyurappa has ruled out banning the Sri Ram Sene. Not only that, while condemning the pub attack on one hand he also said he too believes pub culture should not be allowed to grow.

AMIM, why do you not read the topic and post something related to it.
Instead you go around all the threads like a village idiot, mostly cutting and pasting things that have no relation to the topic of the thread.

This makes you look like the fool and you wear the patience of the Administrator/Editor of this site to breaking point.

You've got soo much hate in you that you posts like a damn muslima.
If it were not for you self confession, I would still believe that you are a girl.
So go out man and get laid; you need to chill out.

Cheers and have a good lay.

AMIM Keep it up you are still there Keep Reading some day you will wake up.

LIST OF MAJOR RIOTS IN INDIA

HINDU INDIA & HISTORIC RECORDS OF VIOLENCE AND EVIDENCE OF GOVERNMENT SPONSORED HINDU TERRORISM

Khalistan News, Monday, 08 September 2008

Dal Khalsa Alliance, Dr Awatar Singh Sekhon, S kumar, JASWINDER SANDHU, Sankar Narayanan, Arun Shrivastava, Z T Minhas, Arvind Amin, S kumar.

Disclaimer:- Statistics in this flyer are of independent Writers, News Papers, Statements, Books, Video Docs., Websites etc. It is speaking of truth from historic records, however Reader may or may not necessarily agree with Title, Data, Words, Language or Angle of Provision. Purpose of this flyer is to keep people aware of history to protect country & humanity from crimes against humanity. Sikhs In India live under great threat to their Life, Identity faith & culture. Let’s Help Protecting Them & other Minorities.

REQUEST:- This flyer requests to Intl. Govt. Intelligence Agencies & Domestic Police Services to seriously monitor Hindu Radicalism & its effects on world. Also it’s control over Federal & State governments In India thus making INDIA A TERRORIST STATE.

RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE IN INDIA INCLUDES ACTS OF VIOLENCE BY FOLLOWERS OF HINDUTVA AGAINST FOLLOWERS AND INSTITUTIONS OF OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS, OFTEN IN THE FORM OF RIOTING.

HINDUISM, THE LARGEST RELIGION IN INDIA, ACCOUNTS FOR 80% OF THE POPULATION; ISLAM, THE SECOND LARGEST RELIGION ACCOUNTS FOR 13% OF THE POPULATION BUDDHISM, JAINISM, AND SIKHISM TAKEN TOGETHER ACCOUNT FOR 3% OF THE POPULATION; AND CHRISTIANITY ACCOUNTS FOR 2% OF THE POPULATION. THE HYPOCRITICAL BUT POSING AS DEMOCRATICPOLITICAL PARTY LEADERS ALWAYS TRY TO PLEASE 80% OF HINDU VOTERS BY SPREADING HINDUTVA THUS PROMOTING THE HINDU RADICALISM & ETHNIC CLEANSING. IN SUCH ATTEMPTS OF TERRORISM THE HINDU RADICALISM GETS STRONGER & TERRORISED MINORITIES BECOME MERCIFUL VICTIMS. THERE ARE 2 MAIN PARTIES OF HYPOCRITICAL INDIA, BJP & CONGRESS. TO PLEASE HINDU RADICALS CONGRESS PROMOTES OPPRESSION ON MINORITIESWHEREAS BJP DIRECTLY PROMOTES HINDUTVA MEANS PURE HINDU NATION. FOLLOWINGS IS THE LIST OF EVENTS OF GENOCIDE:

Calcutta Riots or Direct Action Day Riots - The manslaughter On 16 August 1946 left 4000 people dead within 72 hours in the city of Calcutta and 100,000 residents of the city were left homeless. Violence in Calcutta sparked off further religious riots in the surrounding regions of Noakhali, Bihar, UP, Punjab, and the North Western Frontier Province.

REFERENCES:- Hindu Communalism and Partition1932-47. Cambridge Univ. Press; Time -26 Aug 1946; Partition of India: Legend and Reality. Oxford Univ. Press

Partition Riots - The Rioting and Dislocation associated with partition In 1947 costed 500,000 Lives.

REFERENCES:- World Almanac 1984 : 200,000, Hammond 500,000, Eckhardt: 800,000, D.Smith 1,000,000, B&J: 1,000,000 (1945-48), Hartman: 1,000,000, Stanley Wolpert (In A New History of India -1993): 1,000,000, Collins and Lapierre (In Freedom at Midnight-1975) cite these following sources: Khosla, Stern Reckoning: 500,000, Moon, Divide and Quit: 200-250,000, Hodson: The Great Divide: 200-250,000, Chanduli Trivedi- governor of Punjab: 225,000, P. Johnson puts the death toll at 200-600,000. In addition to some of the Collins and Lapierre sources, he cites these authorities: Stephens, Pakistan (1963): 500,000, Edwardes, Last Years of British India (1963): 600,000. The median of these 14 estimates is 500,000.

BhagalpurRiots - The Rioting occurred 4 Times In Bhagalpur1924, -36,-46 And -89.1989 left 1900 dead.
The hindu radical men were found guilty of killing and burying 116 Muslims in Bhagalpur in the northern state of Bihar in 1989. A court in India has convicted 14 Hindus of mass killings of Muslims.

REFERENCES:- BBC Report: Hindus 'guilty of Muslim deaths' , (Reported By By Amarnath Tewary) AND World Encyclopedia, Bhagalpur has an average literacy rate of 68%, with 70% of the males and 62% of the females literate. 14% of the population is under 6 years of age.

Hyderabad Riots - In December 1990 riots took 1,000 civ.& 1,000 radicals totalling 2,000 lives.From 1978 to 1984 riots were like annual festivals. No of total deaths is hard t o retreive. But in 1988, it wasreported that the streets of Hyderabad were littered with bodies of right from Hirabad to Latifabad claiming more than 400 deaths.Some other Rioting also occurred In 1948, 1978, Sept 07, 1983, 1988, & 1992.

REFERENCES:- The Vanishing Glory of Hyderabad (Sindh, Pakistan)". UNIOR Web Journals,. "Hyderābād City - Imperial Gazetteer of India v. 13, p. 321", "Pakistan Backgrounder". South Asia Terrorism Portal. Retrieved on 2008-04-14

1984 Delhi Sikh Massacre – BLOOD SHED IN CAPITOL OF COUNTRY
The 1984 Sikh massacre left 4800 Sikhs dead & 1,50,000 homeless. Then Prime Minister of India,Rajiv Gandhi, son of Indira Gandhi, made an insensitive statement at Boat Club in New Delhi on November 19th 1984, on the birthday of Indira Gandhi, “Some riots took place in the country following the murder of Indiraji. We know the people were very angry and for a few days it seemed that India had been shaken. But, when a mighty tree falls, it is only natural that the earth around it does shake a little.” If this is justification of massacre by a prime minister then the whole regime reflects as Terrorist Regime.

References:- Swadesh Bahadur Singh (editor of the Sher-i-Panjâb weekly): “Cabinet berth for a Sikh”, Indian Express:31-5-1996., The Tribune -When the big tree fell, Publik Asia, 16-11-1989, A life sentence, http://www.mha.nic.in/Nanavati-I.pdf ,Fresh probe into India politician, BJP to govt: Clear stand on anti-Sikh riots' witness, 1984 riots: CBI to re-investigate Tytler's role, The attorney defending Nov 1984 riot victims in Delhi.Contains important affidavits and other documentation, 1984 Sikhs', Kristallnacht: 5-part video. Times of India Report On the 20th Anniv. of the riots,Anti-Sikh riots a pogrom: Khushwant, When A Tree Shook Delhi-By Ad.H.S.Phoolka, www.carnage84.com, www.ensaaf.org.

Ayodhya Riots - In 1992 Riots between Hindus and Muslims left 2350 Dead.(avg of Ref)
Hindu hardliners with help of state destroyed the Babri mosque in the northern town in 1992, rioting around the country claimed an estimated 2,000 lives.

REFERENCES:- AP 2Mar2002: 2,000; Irish Times 2March2002: 2,000.; National Post 1March2002: 3,000 (1992-93

Gawakadal massacre - The death-toll was over300.
On Jan 20, 1990, in Indian occupied Kashmir near Gawakada bridge of Srinagar city, the Indian paramilitary troops of the CRPF (Federal Police) opened fire on a group of unarmed Kashmiri protesters, including women and children. No federal government investigation was ever ordered into the incident. As a result, the state government then lead by Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah resigned, and the state went under President's rule.

REFERENCES:- Amnesty Report, NHR Comm. Report, BBC News Aug 16, 2007, Human Rights Watch Report-2006, Victoria Schofield- Kashmir in Conflict)

Bombay Riots - December 1992 & January 1993 riots took 1000 lives.
Wilful burning of shops, killings and the destruction of property occurred in distinctively different kinds of areas. A judicial commission of inquiry has found that the Shiv Sena (Army Of Angel – Hindu Terrorist Group)-a member party of India's governing coalition and the dominant partner in the two-party alliance that rules the State Of Maharashtra-fomented and organized communal riots in Bombay in Jan1993.

REFERENCES:- Srikrishna Commission Report, Maximum City: Bombay lost and found, BBC, New York Times, Indian Muslim News and Information

Kashmir & Jammu Civil War - Total casualties of civil war from 1989 To 2000 is 34093. (avg of Ref.)
According to various following sources total death toll is calculated on avg. of resources basis.

REFERENCES:- US State Department Report In 2000 (To Date Since 1989) Militants: 10,727, Civilians: 8,000 killed by militants, 2,600 killed in crossfire,Security personnel: 2,000, TOTAL: 23,327.;.Times of India 6 January 2001 (To Date Since 1990)Militants: 12,336,Civilians: 11,600,Security personnel: 2,282; TOTAL (Since 1990): 26,421.;BBC Reporting 2000: 34,000.;4.AP Sources 3 July 2001- Indian government Reports:30,000+;Human rights activists and opposition leaders: 60,000-80,000,plus 2,500-3,000 Muslim men missing at hands of security forces. Report On 4 Jan. 2001 By Bloomberg: 34,000 milit. & civ. Denver Rocky Mtn News 23 May 1999 : 25,000; Ploughshares 2000 Report: 20-40,000.

Gujraat Bloodshed - The 2002 Gujarat Massacre claimed 2400 Lives.
Gujarat Massacre contained Series of communal Attacks of Hindus on Muslims in the Indian State of Gujarat between Feb and May 2002. More than one hundred and fifty thousand people were displaced. An international fact finding committee formed of experts from US, UK, France, Germany and Sri Lanka said that "sexual violence was being used as a strategy for terrorising women belonging to minority community in the state.
(There is history of some other Riots where causalities were less than 50. Such incidents considered to be routine fashion of INDIA can not be listed on these two pages as it is a huge list)

“Hindu society can be assured safety only by setting up Hindu suicide squads”
Bal Keshav Thackeray (Admirer Of Hitler & Shiv Sena Supremo) ON June 17, 2008 Ref: News Papers Of June 18&19,2008

After Years of Oppression on Minorities the Hindu Leaders Still Feels That they need Hindu SuicideSquads.

Madam Madeleine Albright (Former USA Secretary of State And Former US Ambassador To UN): The govt. of India has murdered more than 250,000 Sikhs since 1984, in excess of 200,000 Christians in Nagaland since 1947, almost 60,000 Kashmiri Muslims since 1988, and tens of thousands of Assamese, Tamils, Manipuris, Dalits,and others. The State Department reported that between 1992 and 1994. The Indian government paid over 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for murdering Sikhs. Two Canadian journalists published a book called Soft Target in which they proved that the Indian government blew up its own airliner in 1985 just to blame the Sikhs. In this light, the United States must declare India a terrorist state. We must then impose all the sanctions that we impose on any other terrorist state. This will be a good step towards ending the terrorism and restoring freedom to all the people of South Asia.HON Edolphous Towns (In US House of Representatives TUESDAY, OCT 6, 1998)

***
AMIM said:

Krishna’s extreme hatred and foul language against the unbelievers (i.e., non-Hindus) ...
***

Why do you assume the term "unbelievers" automatically refers to non-Hindus? UNLIKE ISLAM, orthodox Hinduism acknowledges many paths to salvation. So, the Gita is actually saying, "as long as you believe, you'll be saved--REGARDLESS OF RELIGION."

Compare that to Islam, which BLATANTLY condemns followers of other religions: "Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell." - Quran, 2:96

Almost 60 years after independence from Britain, no wonder India is sending satellites into space while Pakistan just sends suicide bombers into other countries (like Afghanistan).

(By the way, I'm not a Hindu.)

Great AMIN, seems you have not learnt your manners yet! Did you get some special treatement from Zaki Naki, you Pealry eyed boy of his you.
So some hindus are creating problems for the girls who wanna have some fun, let me tell you they are idiots. but tell me something how many Islamic countries have pubs???
huh! So Krishna asked Hindus to kill those who kill cows, man I ve been eating beef since I was a Kid, never did a Hindu even threaten to kill me. By the way How many people do you know who have been killed by Hindus for eating beef?
I don't know even one.
Now as far as Hindu extremist is concerned, I guess its a reality and even I as an Ex-Muslim have to face the reality. However the point is that this is the outcome of the deeds of your coreligionists who have killing and maiming these people since centuries. Now that they are speaking in the languge that you understand, why are you crying.
I know that Hindus are getting angry, but this anger has been growing slowly and steadily over the years. Asking the Hindus to shuttup would be stupid, considering the alternative. In any case many Muslims in India realizing the truth and are going back to their original fold.
In Rajastahan alone around 50000 Muslims have converted to Hinduism is about 4 years. Hopefully all of them realize the truth of Islam and leave it for good. Whether they become Hindus are remain without a religion a religion is not my concern. My only concern is that they leave Islam.
Another bad news for you AMIN is that Muslim population in India is actually going down according to the latest survey, the reason being that Muslims refuse to get the multitude of their kids to get inoculated and hence these kids die at a young age. Most of the Muslims also die pretty young, due to malnutrition and unhygienic living conditions.
So while the Muslims were steadily growing till recently and were 15% have now gone down to almost 13%.

The One Gunman

Dont worry about AMIN, he is the pearly eyed boy of Zaki Naki. He will go to any length to justify the actions of his pedophilia hero MU HAM MAD.

Ibrahim don't get out of control think of it positively at least he is visiting the site and has to read what you or other write.
Keep calm let him read.

Yeah Raj, you are wise

Raja, buddy. I can figure out a person by what he writes. There people whom you can help and others who can't. This fellow here AMIN or Reader or whatever you like to call him is beyond help. He is a total metal frusto. I am telling you, this one has been in this forum for long and there is no way you or I can help him.
He is totally connived that Islam is the true religion (whatever a true religion means) and Mu HAM MAD was great man.
He is beyond help, and he is not doing us a favour by visiting FFI. There are thousands of Muslims who visit this website. Not all of them have the courage to comment of leave their testimonies. That is why people like me and Nurdhulla have to step in order to give inspiration to those Muslims who wanna leave Islam.
Being a Muslim and living amongst Muslims almost three decades, I know how Muslims think. If you treat them nice and kind they will take you for a fool and take advantage of you. So its best that people like AMIN are treated like the crap they are.
In any case he/ she is a fanatic and beyond help so there is no point in being good to him/her.

A bunch of widow and sudra killer hindus are trying to make Muslims leave Islam! They also want Muslims to kill widows and sudras! What a joke! On the other hand thousands of descent hindus are converting to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Atheism every day. So, keep dreaming, idiots!

AMIM,
go and find out how muslims fucked your previous generations to know how you came to be a muslim.. as for who is killing whom, the world knows.. open any newspaper and you will know.. oh wait but you are fucking blind. you have eyes but can't see, you are educated but can't read and comprehend..
the joke is on you and no one else. Stop making a fool of yourself. People are not going to believe you.

AMIM few more for your reading

http://womensphere.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/taliban-kill-afghan-woman-po...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20071\26\story_26-1-2007_pg7_3

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/UP_Madrasa_board_bans_co-educa...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20076\14\story_14-6-2007_pg7_29

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/weekinreview/15smith.html?_r=1&fta=y

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20091\30\story_30-1-2009_pg7_2

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20064\25\story_25-4-2006_pg7_26

Amim, I do watch India keenly. The one thing I observe there is that their civil society which is mostly hindus condemns any wrong incident to the tooth. This is what the Muslim society should do as well. And then we can definitely save Islam from the bad image it has.

To the author of this article!

Javed Ahmad Ghamdi is working from within Islam to reform it. He is not condemning Islam. This is what i said in various articles. Islam needs to be dissociated from its Clergy and it will also modernise.

My point do not attack Islam as it will turn away even open minded Muslims. The approach here is to offend and not inviting.

Ibrahim wrote: “This one is for you, can you please tell me as to why you approve of Ghamidi? The reformation that he is proposing consists of lying big time about Islam. Do we really want to deal with a liar. I mean cmmon Ali, someday some crazy lunatic discoverers the Hadiths and this fellow will be declared as heretic.”

There is a time and place for everything. I do not approve of Muslim reformers in the West. Why? Because their audience are mostly the uniformed Westerners who are given a false sense of security believing that Islam has also a moderate component to it and therefore it should be recognize as a legitimate religion. I do not recognize these reformers, no matter how sweet their talk maybe and how critical of the ‘Islamic radicalism’ they may sound as my allies. While I am trying to expose the foundation of Islam and bring this edifice down, they are trying to shore it up. So we are working against each other. I have nothing to do with these self proclaimed reformers. I believe they are misguided, disingenuous, or dishonest.

The Case of Mr. Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is different. He is hauling from one of the most fundamentalist Islamic countries, the manufacturer of jihadis. His audience is the potential terrorists. He cannot do or say anything different. He cannot denounce Islam the way we in the west can. He reaches millions of people, the ones who otherwise cannot hear the message of FFI.
Yes, it is true that as long as Muslims believe in Islam there is a chance that a charismatic religious leader like Khomeini pulls them towards fundamentalism again. But, if we can get the reforms that Mr. Ghamidi is promoting we have won half of the battle. If people could leave Islam without the fear of death, if the critics of Islam are not given death sentence on the spot, there is a chance to enlighten the Muslims and wean then from Islam completely. He is creating an environment where dialogue can take place and remember that dialogue is what will destroy Islam not bombs.

Krishna’s extreme hatred and foul language against the unbelievers (i.e., non-Hindus) in Gita (these are not my words. so, if anybody gets offended, s/he shouldn’t blame me):

That is really funny... lets see....

“The evil doers, the ignorant, the lowest persons who are attached to demonic nature, and whose power of discrimination has been taken away by divine illusive power (Maya) do not worship or seek Me.” (Gita 7:15)

Where does this say unbelievers or atheists ? Do you even know what this text is talking about ? The key word is "Asuram gunam" means those who have demonic nature. It is talking about souls that are classified as asuras. You can think of these beings as jinns or devils. Their characteristics is given and one of their characteristics is unbelief in God.

However NOT everybody who is an atheist is asura or devil.

“The irrational, the faithless, and the disbeliever (atheist) perishes. There is neither this world, nor the world beyond, nor happiness for the disbeliever.” (Gita 4:40)

wrong translation.... Why do Muslims lie to make their point ? there is no mention of disbeliever in this verse...

Verily there is no purifier in this world like knowledge. One who becomes purified by Karma-yoga discovers this knowledge within (naturally) in course of time. (4.38)

The one who has faith , and is sincere (shraddha), and has mastery over the senses, gains this knowledge. Having gained this, one at once attains the supreme peace. (4.39)

But the ignorant, who has no faith and is full of doubt (about the Self), perishes. There is neither this world nor the world beyond nor happiness for the one who doubts. (4.40)

The context shows it is talking about performance of duties. The word Shraddha is translated usually as faith, but it really means sincereity and putting one's full heart into the task in this context. So ther verse says, one who is insincere and does things half-hearted perishes.

“Whatever is done without faith (asraddha) - whether it is sacrifice, charity, austerity, or any other act - is useless. It has no value here or hereafter, O Arjuna.” (Gita 17:28)

The word "asraddha" means without sincerity or with halfheartedness. So one who does charity with political or any other expectation in return, the charity has no value in here-after.

“The agent who is impassioned, attached to the fruits of their work, greedy, violent, impure, and is affected by joy and sorrow is called passionate. The undisciplined, vulgar, stubborn, wicked, malicious, lazy, depressed, and procrastinating agent is called ignorant.” (Gita 18:27-28)

Where does it talk anywhere about unbelievers ?

“There are only two types (or castes) of human beings in this world: The divine, or the wise (believer); and the demonic, or the ignorant (disbeliever).

Now why do you put in brackets your own meanings ? Is this how Muslims lie ?

Kill the killers of the cow with the piece of lead:

“If thou destroy a cow of ours… We pierce thee with this piece of lead…” (Atharva-Veda I.16.4)

You Muslims are great liars....LOL....

here...look at the context, the Atharva Veda verses are prayers against demons...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/av/av01016.htm

HYMN XVI
A prayer and charm against demons

1May potent Agni who destroys the demons bless and shelter us.
From greedy fiends who rise in troops at night-time when the
moon is dark..................

.......................................
4If thou destroy a cow of ours, a human being, or a steed,
We pierce thee with this piece of lead so that thou mayst not slay
our men.

“The fiend who steals the milch-cow’s milk away, O Agni, tear off the heads of such with fiery fury…. If one would glut him with the biesting, Agni, pierce with thy flame his vitals as he meets thee. Let the fiends drink the poison of the cattle; may Aditi cast off the evildoers. May the God Savitar give them up to ruin, and be their share of plants and herbs denied them.” (Rig-Veda 10:87:16)

Muslims have no shame in lying through their mouth...Again, this is a prayer to God, who is addressed as Agni. This is in no way can explained as orders to kill unbelievers or any other person...LOL....

http://flaez.ch/rv/rv.pl?nr=913&txt=shppgr

May Gods destroy this day the evil-doer may each hot curse of his return and blast him.
Let arrows pierce the liar in his vitals, and Visva's net enclose the Yatudhana. (Rig Veda 10:87:15)

The fiend who smears himself with flesh of cattle, with flesh of horses and of human bodies, Who steals the milch-cow's milk away, O Agni,-tear off the heads of such with fiery fury. (Rig Veda 10:87:16)

I do not approve of Muslim reformers in the West. Why? Because their audience are mostly the uniformed Westerners who are given a false sense of security believing that Islam has also a moderate component to it and therefore it should be recognize as a legitimate religion.

Ali Sina, Does that mean that the only face that they see of Islam is that which makes them hate it. There are millions of Muslims who have nothing to do with the few misguided ones.

I am a Pakistani Sindhi. The way Islam came in Sindh is no way different to the way it came in Iran. But I like it. I means its about monotheism. Thats the central message it brought out to a world of polytheists. However my forefathers were Hindu Brahmins as I am told. I also dont hate polytheists and I also do not approve of the clergy class that have distorted Islam and made you guys disapprove of it.

But still I believe that it requires people from within and not disapprovers to modernise it. It has a liberal tolerant face and that should be known not only to
non muslims but

AMIM is big time idiot. He might have got a stupid website from where he is copying and pasting them here.

Chapter names and verses are looking like some PIG (Muslim) screwed their meanings and put them in his own created hindu website.

I actually googled all verses and none are right. Few are with wrong meaning and few are modified.

AMIM put the same research in Quran and we are pretty sure you will hate it. We do not want to take pain like you to copy and paste them here. You take pain to see the truth in your B**L S***T Quran.

This copy paste idiot does no good to the followers of this pedophilic cult . If this copy paste specialist is indicative of the level of intelligence among believers, then the world has a big problem in hand.The world should ready itself for destruction.
Are there sensible moslems at all in the whole bickering wrold? Sensible an moslem? Oxymoron I suppose.The monemt one becomes sensible, he will no longer be a moslem.He may have a chopped of dik, but he probably will not approve of sleeping with kiddos.
This copy paste cretin specialist will happily give his daughter aged 6 to a mullah aged 90 from sodi barbaria.

It's difficult for Mr. Ghamdi to make those reformations, he will face a very very tough resistance from moslem fundamentalists (he might be beheaded) And the reformation become "A Mission Impossible"

Neutered Mullah AMIM

Despite being an islamic beard monkey, you are now spending time reading kaffir texts. What did you do with your Koran, did you finish it off wiping your bums? Such a kamzaat you are!

Last time, you were bragging about your circumcised dick right on this site, seeking a suitable hole. Such a luccha you are!

No wonder you call yourself AMIM (Ajlaf Mother-chod Idiotic Mullah)
Reform yourself, will yea kaminchod!

Wasim wrote:

"I am a Pakistani Sindhi. The way Islam came in Sindh is no way different to the way it came in Iran. But I like it. I means its about monotheism. Thats the central message it brought out to a world of polytheists. However my forefathers were Hindu Brahmins as I am told. I also dont hate polytheists and I also do not approve of the clergy class that have distorted Islam and made you guys disapprove of it."

What's a Sindhi?

Sindh is a region in Pakistan Marie and people from there are called sindhis.

CURSE ON U ,AND ALL LIKE U,AND 16:49. And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride. P Y C

16:50. They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded. P Y C
16:51. And Allah has said: Take not two gods, He is only one Allah; so of Me alone should you be afraid. P Y C
16:52. And whatever is in the heavens and the earth is His, and to Him should obedience be (rendered) constantly; will you then guard against other than (the punishment of) Allah?

Shakir's Quran Translation

Wasim wrote:

"Sindh is a region in Pakistan Marie and people from there are called sindhis."

Thanks.

Hello Mr. Amar Khan,

Even though you are entitled to have your opinion regarding individuals but I think you have been very unfair to Ghamidi in presenting his opinions. You didn't even have the courtesy, courage and the academic integrity to give references in your post. For instance, in (1) you state that Ghamidi says that there is no prescribed punishment for adulterers in Islam and that the punishments mentioned were only for the people of Medina. I challenge that this is absolutely wrong, a lie you have attributed to Ghamidi. If you think you are right then post evidence here that can be seen by all but I doubt you will have the courage and fairness to do so.
Many articles posted on this website reflect complete ignorance of the basic principles of academic honesty, which leaves this website as a complete waste of time for many. However, many such postings may be sufficient for satisfying the egos and desires of some but not of those who weigh and consider without emotions and hatred that gets reflected from this website. I came here only to point out the unfair presentation of Ghamidi's views. Even though, I may disagree with many views of Ghamidi but academic honesty necessitates that we first understand, then evaluate and then criticise other person's opinions in a fair manner. I am afraid if same was done to you, you wouldn't like it, would you?

To Ibrahim, Ali Sina, Amar Khan, Ibn Kammuna,

There are # 54 Islamic countries. The people there have higher birthrates than the people in the Democratic countries in the world. And there is one-way migration. (And some conversion, but that goes both ways). People like you, (Ali Sina + FFI-friends), Wafa Sultan, Brigitte Gabriel, Geert Wilders, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes + many others warn us eloquently of the danger and that is very good.

May I present some thoughts about a possible way forward? In many books I read it was essential to be FOR something, not AGAINST something. Although it is natural and good to be alarmed by danger and wanting to flee or fight and remove or prevent it. But then consider what it is you want to replace it with. And aim for that, in the vast majority of your thoughts. The reason goes like this: Our imagination is powerful and creates reality (slowly but surely) and this imagination sees images, but cannot distinquish between desired or NOT wanted, it only sees the images.

If this were true, we would put the Muslims in the advantage by focusing on Islam, with passion, although of course we want to fight/ stop/ diminish it, whereas they want to expand it. But both sides think of Islam in this process. And the images are what count, NOT if we are FOR or AGAINST Islam! Whereas when we want to expand the positive alternative, then they will be AGAINST that, but still having images of it in their heads, as we do.
Well, I don't expect people to agree, it's just what many books that I read said.

Now, what is it that we do want then, if not more and more Islamic states or cities, regions, neighborhoods? My preliminary answer: Maybe we want to enhance all over the world the 5 pillars of democracy; free elections, free speech, autonomy of the individual (so equal rights for women), constitutional state, separation of church and state. Especially we want to convert all the 54 Islamic states into democratic states.

But of course this is very difficult and we want to go about it as peaceful as we can. Now consider land and its people. Land is highly valued but in the 21st century it may not be so important anymore. Anyway, we can travel from 1 place on the planet to another in 2 days max. Now if we were te relax on landpossession, we could focus on people. We could aim to have as high a % of the Muslims living under democratic rule as possible.

I would love the situation back that there was an open new country people could flock to, like the situation was with America in 1600-1900. Now we could somehow somewhere drain land or donate/ cultivate parts of Greenland, Canada, Alaska. Then we could start economically viable new countries there.

But always, upon entrance, on condition of the signing of a contract for keeping the 5 pillars of Democracy fully working. Along with other well-thought-conditions. Making sure people who are undercutting these can be deported, making sure we always have places for them to go also, preferably old Islamic countries, otherwise 1 or 2 new ones.

These new countries would be the receiving end of migration. The sending side would be many poor countries, including most Islamic countries. Yes, much is dependent on economic possibilities, but if this works, then let us focus on wholesale migration-freedom eventually.

We know that large parts of the populations of poor countries, among them many Islamic Countries, do want to migrate out. But most have nowhere to go. Many of them are fed up with poverty and oppression. Many women there are prepared to marry total strangers, of all ages, just to escape their country and other migrants risk their very lives just to get to the rich countries.

But the democratic countries so far could only take a fraction of would-be-migrants, thus keeping a lid on migration of the population of poor, oppressed countries, partly Islamic ones. Now, if these migrants can go in ever greater numbers to new democratic states, that would obviously enhance the % of Islamic people under democratic rule. It would eventually also enhance the % of them that are democratically minded. It would be great if political and religious leaders in dictatorial, especially Islamic, countries, would not be able to hold on to their populations which would go in their millions to new democratic countries. And they already fear our free speech now!

And what if immigrant Muslims were to take over some of these new Democratic countries, or even parts of Europe? It is still my estimation, that they then cannot keep these then new Islamic countries so attractive that more people move in than out. And when their people again flee in great numbers to democratic countries, democracy keeps winning over dictatorships, including dictatorial Islam. Because land is not important, but a high % of people under democratic rule is. Already the stream of migrants is so one-sided from dictatorial countries to democratic ones. Because the democratic countries are simply better in economics than dictatorial, especially Islamic, ones, let alone in providing basic freedoms, justice etc.

As democracies have grown much in number in the last 100 years, we are justified in having some confidence that they will continue to grow. And as frequently pointed out: Democracy thrives with dialoque, but it is difficult for Islam, so how are Muslims in Democratic countries going to evolve? At least most of the media they will be able to see/ hear will not be manipulated or cowed any more.

And when are the Muslims, when in power, going to make even one desirable state where people voluntarily flock to? And what if they could achieve this? Not bad, let them make the effort! Let the best society win! It's really all about competition between democracies and dictatorships. We already know that free trade trumps protection measures. Now maybe we could practice ever more freedom of migration, in the whole world, just as we have the freedom of moving to any city or region we choose in our own countries.

It is only a very preliminary idea, I no doubt expressed it clumsily, it has to be worked out tremendously, but what do you think of it?

Интересно пишете, жизненно. Все-таки, для того, чтобы делать интересный блог, нужно не только просто сообщать о чем-то, но и делать это в интересной форме:)

Hello Wasim,

I found your post interesting. You seem to be a reasonable person. I'm not sure why you did not understand Ali Sina's comment in which he said he does not approve Western reformers. It's because he thinks they're lying in saying that Islam is a peaceful religion etc., which Mr. Sina (and I) think is wrong. So it's a blatant attempt to misguide. On the other hand he's supporting Mr. Ghamidi not because Mr. Sina thinks Mr. Ghamidi is telling the truth. I think Mr. Sina knows that what Mr. Ghamidi is saying not entirely true. He still supports him because the reform Mr. Ghamidi is talking about has the potential to give the Islamic community an opportunity to think freely and hopefully drive them towards the truth (Islam is not a peaceful or humane religion). This is unnecessary in the West because you already have the freedom and what you need is the truth.

I think the fundamental difference between you and Mr. Sina is that you think Islam is a good religion while Mr. Sina thinks it's evil. I think you need to read more of what Mr. Sina says because he quotes directly from Quran and other standard Islamic materials.

By the way I'm born in India in a Brahmin community and I don't approve of all the things in the Hindu religion. I found "Advaita" theory to be very intellectual and interesting. Also by the way Hinduism is not polytheistic at the core. Polytheism is meant only for the lowest level of pursuers of God. The main difference is what ever Hinduism might say Indian Constitution is separate from it and Hinduism has no political affect on Hindus. So we don't need to worry about Hinduism. This is not the case with Islam/Sharia; so you need to debate it.

-Ramesh.

Hi Omar, Do you have the text of mr. Ghamidi's proposal. If you think what Mr. Khan said is wrong, please post your version. Also I did not understand the point of contention. Are you saying Mr. Gamidhi did not propose anything regarding adulterers or he knows this is just not for Meccans but he condemns that anyway?