Human Selective Rationalism

Dear Ibrahim,

What you have written is absolutely true. For some, religion is a strict belief in a monotheistic God who sits in Cloud 9 and admits his believers to Heaven and gives marching orders to non-believers to go to Hell forever. For others, his/her religion is a way of life that aspires coexistence of other religions, ideas, philosophy, and cultures. When we condemn religion/religious practice, we need to consider the following things.

1. Is a religion trying to wipe out other religions or cultures by imposing that its God is the only True God and hence others shouldn't exist?
2. Do the teachings of that religion incite hatred towards others and thus create a Believers vs Non-believers hysteria?
3. Is that religion willing to accept rational/logical/scientific ideas which once didn't exist in it?
4. Is that religion able to mould itself according to present circumstances?
5. Do the current followers of that religion willingly admit the horrible crimes committed in the past/present in the name of its God? This is extremely important for it gives an opportunity to redeem itself (religion) by analyzing its ghory past.
6. Are the followers of that religion ready to debunk the inhumane verses from their scriptures, thus paving way for reformation?
7. Do arguments with the followers of a particular religion lead to argumentum ad baculum?
8. Are the followers of a particular religion up on their toes to describe the barbarity of another religion but carefully put the ghory past of their own religion under carpet?

If there are religions that aspire peaceful coexistence with others, engages in exchange of ideas through philosophical discussion rather than through swords, and contains wealth of noble ideas, then we should encourage them.

Harmless Islamic rituals are NO problem to anybody, unless they use government money (Hajj subsidy in India) to do these rituals. The only problem is imposing Islam's might on others.

Christians have a 1600-2000 year long history of calling every other religious rituals as superstitious while NOT looking at their own religious practices. Hypocrisy runs in their blood, especially the evangelizing ones.

I feel that we are living in a crazy world where people have a misplaced sense of Justice and thought.

How ironic ? I got slammed by somebody for saying this...

I live in India and have seen that many Hindu members of the forum spit out at Islamic barbarism and beliefs but many insane beliefs exists in their own religion and they try to justify those. Hinduism has unscientific rituals like considering cows urine to be holy and drinking and sprinkling it, unscientific beliefs like Solar eclipse is because of Sun being engulfed by a demon, various hirarious stories of their Gods and barbaric custom of Lower Caste and Upper Caste in which lower caste hindus were tortured very ruthlessly in the past. But the difference is many educated hindus are open to change and accept reforms but in case of Muslims even educated once are not open to reforms in Islam.

barbaric custom of Lower Caste and Upper Caste in which lower caste hindus were tortured very ruthlessly in the past.

While there may have happened discrimination in past in some cases, it is NOT practiced by majority of Hindus and there is NO evidence of any "ruthless torture" at all. After ll Hindus do NOT claim to be perfect.

Hinduism has unscientific rituals like considering cows urine to be holy and drinking and sprinkling it,

Cows and their byproducts were considered for its medicinal value by Hindus, Jains and Zoroastrians of Iran. No Hindu scripture says to drink raw urine, while this may be used as antiseptic for cleaning wounds etc. In Ayurveda (Hindu medicine which also gave to this world small pox inoculation, plastic surgery etc.) cow urine extract is used for different purposes. There are patents on cow urine as bio-enhancers. There is nothing unscientific about this.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6410059/fulltext.html

There is no such thing as 'moderate' Islam there is no such thing as 'peaceful ' Islam there is no such thing as 'tolerant' Islam there is no such thing as 'misunderstood' Islam there is just ISLAM.

All the violence, misigyny hate and perversion comes DIRECTLY for Islam and its manual of Hate and War they call the koran.

Apostate says: Hinduism has unscientific rituals like considering cows urine to be holy and drinking and sprinkling it..... >> I have never seen a single Hindu drinking cows urine. OTOH I agree that cow is considered sacred. I shall explain the logic behind it; it is up to you to take it or not. Once the baby stops drinking its mother's milk, cow becomes the only source of milk and hence acts as your mother. Cow dung is dried and used a source of heating to cook (you can even see it in Indian villages). Cow and bull are used for tilling lands. I hope being born in a great country like India, you should by now--after becoming an apostate-- have understood the importance.

unscientific beliefs like Solar eclipse is because of Sun being engulfed by a demon....
>> You must be quoting the work of a communist. Visit the following link http://www.vedicastronomy.net/mahabharatha.htm ; It provides proof of the age of Mahabharath by verifying the planetary positions mentioned in the scripture (Mahabharath). A lunar and solar ecclipse happened within a span of 13 days at that time. For your information the VERSES FROM MAHABHARATH ARE QUOTED. No where did I find the mention of sun or moon being consumed by demons. They also do not say sun set in muddy waters or prostrate before God before rising up.

The author has taken immense pain to calculate the date of the Mahabharath war. He is a consultant for NASA. I believe in constructive argument. If you are genius then refute it point by point, or else say you were wrong.

Apostate's observation is sound.
The difference lies in that Hindus have been able to find that these stories of flying monkey, demons, paradises etc were creation of priestly class, who have been managers of religion playing with people's greed and misery. It was bull-shit of absolute nature, best confined to dustbin (although some rare mythological tales did carry some profound message like the story of sun riding on seven horses of seven colours which on close examination are sun-rays and seven colours of spectrum). The degeneration of caste system into tools of opression and support of oligarchy, the heinous sati-system (which was banned and made a cognizable offence due to the efforts of Hindu reformers like Ram Mohan Roy and Keshab Chandra Sen actively supported by the British State from Willliam Bentink onwards) was perhaps the worst a society could witness. These appalling practices could not find any divinely origins and support, so were rubbished by the society as awareness was gained. Actually, British deserve praise that they did not support obscurantist Hinduism of the priestly class, which finally receded to the background and is a rapidly dying order. It should also be noted that the efforts of similar reformers had never found support by the erstwhile Islamic rulers, quite surprisingly does not find mention in modern Indian history books, which is also a well-documented account (Rise and fall of Mughal Empire by Jadunath Sarkar, another similar book by Vincent Smith, and accounts of medieval social reformers like Kabir, etc).
The muslims should introspect, identify all the unjustifiable, anachronous bedounin arab crap and discard it. Get rid of all gender discrimination and mindless violence. They could have a chance of survival in future. In the present form, Islam is merely a living fossil (a rare breed of times), in future it could only have fuel value.

To Hekina: Sati system didn't exist at the time of Mahabharath (3129 BC) as is evident from the fact that Kunti, the widow of Pandu, lived with her sons (Pandavas) after the death of her husband. The first evidence of Sati is seen in the 12th century when Muhammad Ghazni's army invaded India and started taking Hindu women as captives/concubines. Then came Ghori, Timurlaine, Babar, and other Moghul rulers. When Akbar attacked the Jaipur fort and beheaded around 25,000 Hindu soldiers, their wives committed Johar (self-immolation) instead of falling into the hands of Jihadis. This is very well recorded in Akbarnama (English translation of this chronicle is made by Dawson in the 19th century). However, this system vanished gradually after the demise of Islamic rule and it is nonexistent today.

The difference lies in that Hindus have been able to find that these stories of flying monkey, demons, paradises etc were creation of priestly class, who have been managers of religion playing with people’s greed and misery.

This is a historically inaccurate statement. Every religion has its own mythology. This does NOT necessarily mean its priestly class conspired to create these stories to gain control of mass or use their greed. This was their belief, whether these beliefs were true or false. Priestly class in India had its own ups and down and it was NOT in control most of the times.

The degeneration of caste system into tools of opression and support of oligarchy, the heinous sati-system ..... was perhaps the worst a society could witness.

Sati system was practiced by a minority of warrior tribes in Rajasthan and other places. It was NOT a Universal Hindu practice.

These appalling practices could not find any divinely origins and support, so were rubbished by the society as awareness was gained.

Murder (In Rajasthan women were forced to do Sati) was never recognized by Hindus anyway. British gave legal help to this. Neither was exploitative caste practices even recognized even in orthodox schools which were 1000s of years old. So awareness was there among Hindus in general, but due to social conditions that prevailed, no legal actions could be taken, which was facilitated by the British.

Hinduism has unscientific rituals like considering cows urine to be holy and drinking and sprinkling it

Cows and their byproducts were considered for its medicinal value by Hindus, Jains and Zoroastrians of Iran. No Hindu scripture says to drink raw urine, while this may be used as antiseptic for cleaning wounds etc. In Ayurveda (Hindu medicine which also gave to this world small pox inoculation, plastic surgery etc.) cow urine extract is used for different purposes. There are patents on cow urine as bio-enhancers. There is nothing unscientific about this.

patentstorm.us/patents/6410059/fulltext.html

Silenzer:

(To Hekina: Sati system didn’t exist at the time of Mahabharath (3129 BC) as is evident from the fact that Kunti, the widow of Pandu, lived with her sons (Pandavas) after the death of her husband)

You are wrong. Madri, another wife of Pandu committed sati when he died. Kunti wanted to commit sati too, but was prevented to do so by Madri to take care of children who were small (three of Kunti's and two of Madri's). Actually, that is the first reported fact of someone committing sati. .
During the time of Mahabharata, India and hindu civilization were already in a state of decline (to peak again later after Buddha during Chandra Gupta/Chanakya, Ashoka, etc). The age of Upanishad (which was peak of Hindu civilization) had already ended (described in Mahabharata as well as "Kalyuga ka pradurbhava"). That is why, Krishna's Geeta was called vendanta later on (a thing of this nature coming into existence after a very long time post-Upanishads). With Mahabharata, the remanants of achievements that India had acquired up to that time were also destroyed, because the knowledge was occult, confined to a chosen few individuals who perished in the war.

"Rather than trying to understand Muslims, most people try to look down upon them and curse them."

While it is generally a bad idea to look down upon someone beliefs and/or curse them, I personally feel frustrated with the elite muslim class which comprise of Islam scholars, mullahs, apologists or any other muslim intellectuals. These have opportunities and capacities to research their religion, identify flaws within it, reform or reject it. However when they do, instead of coming out with reformation (rejection may be a hard option to take), they come out with a more concetrated brand of Islam, Wahhabi type, Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. In fact all these terrorist organisation are led by high class muslim clerics graduated from elite Islam Universities! On the other hand, when we see other muslim intellectuals and apologists advocating "peaceful" Islam, they do it deceitfully, knowing for sure this is not what Islam preaches. They take the advantage of the ignorance of common muslims for their own personal gains.

Continuum:
(Priestly class in India had its own ups and down and it was NOT in control most of the times)

Priestly class was never in control. I wrote they were managers of religion which they always have been, supporting oligarchy of Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, read again. They were such shameless managers that they began managing even Vedas, Upanishads and Geeta. Yoga and tantra they simply could not.

(Sati system was practiced by a minority of warrior tribes in Rajasthan and other places. It was NOT a Universal Hindu practice.)

Not minority in Rajasthan, it was practiced by Surya-vanshis as well as Chndra-Vanshis, which makes majority in Rajasthan. More than Rajasthan, it was in Bengal (not warriors at all) where the reforms frist began. Last reported case of sati was in Rajasthan (in seventies). Other place where it was practiced was in Punjab. It was indeed never practiced in rest of India even in historical times. .

(...British gave legal help to this)

Rajasthan was never under British rule in the first place.

(Neither was exploitative caste practices even recognized even in orthodox schools which were 1000s of years old.)

It is true, nether Yoga mystic schools, nor Tantra mystic schools ever practised or recognized it.

(Hinduism has unscientific rituals like considering cows urine to be holy and drinking and sprinkling it)

It has nothing to do with Hinduism or its rituals (it is ludicrous to say rituals if you know what Hindu rituals are). Its contents were adopted in system of medicine called Ayurveda (with purported benefits). Do you know medicinal honey is a mix of bee's saliva, excreta, and urine. Do you know how many medicines have contents form insects, animals, and other creatures.

Priestly class was never in control. I wrote they were managers of religion which they always have been, supporting oligarchy of Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, read again. They were such shameless managers that they began managing even Vedas, Upanishads and Geeta. Yoga and tantra they simply could not.

You are making claims without evidence. What do you mean by managers of religion ? If they did NOT have control how can they be supporting oligarchy of Kshatriyas or Vaishyas ? How were they managing texts like Gita or Vedas or Upanishads ?

This looks more like a rant to me...

Not minority in Rajasthan, it was practiced by Surya-vanshis as well as Chndra-Vanshis, which makes majority in Rajasthan. More than Rajasthan, it was in Bengal (not warriors at all) where the reforms frist began. Last reported case of sati was in Rajasthan (in seventies). Other place where it was practiced was in Punjab. It was indeed never practiced in rest of India even in historical times.

What percentage of these tribes practiced Sati ? How many incidents did the British record ?

Besides, please tell me how murder can be called as Sati ? Sati is a voluntary act in Hindu scriptures.

Rajasthan was never under British rule in the first place.

This is news to me.... I thought British controlled all of Indian subcontinent by 19th century...

If Islam is true, and truth will stand out from error, as the quran declares, why then extreme censorship of other religions in Islamic countries, say saudi arabia? What are they afraid of? This why I always say that even scholary muslims know that Islam is false, so they must use force to maintains its survival. Take for example the case for christianitity when christian doctrines and christians have been criticized and fought from the very advent of Christianity till today. When it tried to silence critics and limit freedom, history shows this was stupid mistake to make as there was nothing gained. It was during this moment that many people lost confidence in state sponsored christianity and became atheists as a result. Of course Jesus never intended to mix religion and state. Now I am not saying Christianity is the truth, my point is that can Islam survive without limiting freedom of other religions?

Hello Proud.
No, Islam cannot survive without limiting freedoms of people. Oppression is designed within Islam as a matter of creed, Look at separation of state and mosque. This is not allowed in Islam. Look at the barbarity of Sharia Law. It has to be applied in Islam. Islam is not a spiritual endeavor. So, Islam has to make others suffer to be superior.

Contiuum:

You know you sound crass to me.

(What do you mean by managers of religion ? )
It is simple english. One who manages. These guys were teachers to the Kshatriya and Vaishya class, active advisors to them, and instrumental in creating an oligarchy, territory ruled by Kshatriya Kings and money controlled by Vaishyas.

(How were they managing texts like Gita or Vedas or Upanishads ?)

By providing garbled meanings to the texts and giving them ritualistic colours.
Read more of these texts and the priestly versions. There is ample evidence for it, just read more!

(This looks more like a rant to me…)

That is because you are stupid.

(What percentage of these tribes practiced Sati ? How many incidents did the British record ? )

Who cares! It was prevalent social custom. These were not merely tribes, they were ruling classes generally called Rajputs. You cannot have statistics of a widely prevalent social custom. British were not ruling the territories of Rajasthan, how could they have maintained their records.

(This is news to me…. I thought British controlled all of Indian subcontinent by 19th century…)

It is not matter of your thinking. It is fact of history. There were more than 500 odd princely states in India not under direct British control (comprising more or less whole of Rajasthan, many small kingdoms scattered here and there, and some prominent ones like the Nizam of Hyderabad and Maharaja of Kashmir). Proclamation of Queen Victoria of 1858 declared no more territorial conquests in India, and these states remained as they were in their Pre-British days. Evidently, you have to read more to have clarity.

Proud Christian:
(why then extreme censorship of other religions in Islamic countries, say saudi arabia? What are they afraid of?)

That is because they are intolerant. They are far removed from present times into 7th century Arabia.

Contiuum, for you:

(Besides, please tell me how murder can be called as Sati ? Sati is a voluntary act in Hindu scriptures.)

There is no such thing as sati in Hindu scriptures, which are essentially four Vedas, Upanishads, Geeta, Patanjali's YogaShastra, and Tantra. It is the self-serving priestly class of ancient India that has given it religious colour. It is the first attempt successfully at gender discrimination in Hindu society (which thankfully ended). There were Hindus in rest of India, Cambodia, Indinesia, Laos who have never practised it.

As rightly said by Ali

"And also you are right about the fact that people generally are better in evaluating the beliefs of others than their own. It’s that we humans are selecively rational. People cannot see the absurdity of their own beliefs."

And his saying was immediately proved by a fanatic hindu.

Continuum said
Cows and their byproducts were considered for its medicinal value by Hindus, Jains and Zoroastrians of Iran. No Hindu scripture says to drink raw urine, while this may be used as antiseptic for cleaning wounds etc. In Ayurveda (Hindu medicine which also gave to this world small pox inoculation, plastic surgery etc.) cow urine extract is used for different purposes. There are patents on cow urine as bio-enhancers. There is nothing unscientific about this.

Read this http://nirmukta.com/2008/10/04/cows-excreta-as-medicine-insult-to-humanity/

Continuum says in his comments:Christians have a 1600-2000 year long history of calling every other religious rituals as superstitious while NOT looking at their own religious practices

Same thing applies to you as well Mr. Continuum.

continuum says
While there may have happened discrimination in past in some cases, it is NOT practiced by majority of Hindus and there is NO evidence of any “ruthless torture” at all. After ll Hindus do NOT claim to be perfect.

Are you plain ignorant or just pretending to be one. Read this dear continuum

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122003703800.htm
http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/23/stories/2008012355911200.htm
http://ffdaindia.in/OpenLetter/dalits-torture-in-gujurat-on-the-rise/

Dear Ibrahim, with me you would not have had a problem since you were acting like a human being from the start. When I see a human being, I first see him as a decent person regardless of his "religion." A decent human being remains a friend, regardless of his religious background. So you would have been treated fairly by me from the beginning. Have a good day, and may God bless you.

silenzer says:

"I have never seen a single Hindu drinking cows urine."

You not seeing any Hindu drinking cows urine does not mean it does not occur

read this http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050505/asp/nation/story_4698664.asp

silenzer says:
"I agree that cow is considered sacred. I shall explain the logic behind it; it is up to you to take it or not. Once the baby stops drinking its mother’s milk, cow becomes the only source of milk and hence acts as your mother. Cow dung is dried and used a source of heating to cook (you can even see it in Indian villages). Cow and bull are used for tilling lands."

What a fantastic logic. Then according to your flawed logic you should consider all animals which are of use to humans like Bull, Goat, Dog, Donkey, Horse as either your Mother or Father.

Eclipse according to Hindusim:
WHEN THE gods and the demons churned the milky ocean in days of yore, nectar came out of it. Lord Vishnu assumed the form of Mohini, a charming lady, deluded the demons and distributed the nectar only among the gods. But Rahu had disguised himself as a god. The sun and the moon pointed this out to Mohini who immediately slashed off the demon's head. Since the nectar had by then already reached up to the neck, he did not die. Thus the head came to be known as Rahu and the body as Ketu. To avenge this betrayal, Rahu and Ketu periodically eclipse the sun and the moon.

At the time of the eclipse hindus bath in sacred rivers, after the eclipse they clean their houses, vessels, etc., and take a bath before they start cooking. Poojas are performed to prevent the ill effects of the eclipses, it is feared by hindu believers that pregnant women will either abort or deliver babies with congenital abnormalities if they go out during the eclipse.

It doesn't require a genius but common sense and the ability to put aside egotism to accept idioticities in the religions.

May I know why my previous 3 comments were deleted? Is this what you call faith freedom?

It is simple english. One who manages. These guys were teachers to the Kshatriya and Vaishya class, active advisors to them, and instrumental in creating an oligarchy, territory ruled by Kshatriya Kings and money controlled by Vaishyas.

In any society there are intelligent people who work for businessmen and rulers (politicians). There may have been some priestly class members doing this. Advisers were NOT always priestly class people.

There are majority of these people who had no relationship with these people. Infact ritual laws demand priestly class not to work for others. So to call the entire class of people as "managers" is NOT only foolish, but it smacks of bigotry.

By providing garbled meanings to the texts and giving them ritualistic colours.
Read more of these texts and the priestly versions. There is ample evidence for it, just read more!

Priestly class were a people who learned the language and so were able to give meanings to the texts as academicians interpret texts. Besides majority of the texts are indeed ritualistic in addition to philosophical meanings, prescribing methods to do various rituals which involved meditation etc.

They did NOT manage (control) the texts, they were merely preserving the texts and tradition. The texts were used by other classes as well.

That is because you are stupid.

More ranting......

Who cares! It was prevalent social custom. These were not merely tribes, they were ruling classes generally called Rajputs. You cannot have statistics of a widely prevalent social custom. British were not ruling the territories of Rajasthan, how could they have maintained their records.

Again you make false claims that territories of Rajasthan was NOT under British rule when British had control of entire Indian subcontinent, that there are no statistics when there are statistics available.

So you have no statistics and yet you claim majority practiced this custom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)#Numbers

Given a population of over 50 million at the time for the Presidency, this suggests a maximum frequency of immolation among widows of well under 1%.

It is not matter of your thinking. ...... and these states remained as they were in their Pre-British days. Evidently, you have to read more to have clarity.

They may NOT have been under direct British administration, yet they were subject to British rule. They maintained meticulously data on many aspects of India from education to geography etc. So you are wrong...

It is simple english. One who manages. These guys were teachers to the Kshatriya and Vaishya class, active advisors to them, and instrumental in creating an oligarchy, territory ruled by Kshatriya Kings and money controlled by Vaishyas.

In any society there are intelligent people who work for businessmen and rulers (politicians). There may have been some priestly class members doing this. Advisers were NOT always priestly class people.

There are majority of these people who had no relationship with these people. Infact ritual laws demand priestly class not to work for others. So to call the entire class of people as “managers” is NOT only foolish, but it smacks of bigotry.

By providing garbled meanings to the texts and giving them ritualistic colours.
Read more of these texts and the priestly versions. There is ample evidence for it, just read more!

Priestly class were a people who learned the language and so were able to give meanings to the texts just as academicians interpret texts. If you agree that priestly class had no control, then you must agree that by interpreting these texts they had no great control of people as well. Besides majority of the texts are indeed ritualistic in addition to philosophical meanings, prescribing methods to do various rituals which involved meditation etc.

They did NOT manage (control) the texts, they were merely preserving the texts and tradition. The texts were used and interpreted by other classes as well.

That is because you are stupid.

More ranting……

Who cares! It was prevalent social custom. These were not merely tribes, they were ruling classes generally called Rajputs. You cannot have statistics of a widely prevalent social custom. British were not ruling the territories of Rajasthan, how could they have maintained their records.

So you have no statistics and yet you claim majority practiced this custom.

Again you make false claims that territories of Rajasthan was NOT under British rule when British had control of entire Indian subcontinent, that there are no statistics when there are statistics available.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)#Numbers

Given a population of over 50 million at the time for the Presidency, this suggests a maximum frequency of immolation among widows of well under 1%.

It is not matter of your thinking. …… and these states remained as they were in their Pre-British days. Evidently, you have to read more to have clarity.

They may NOT have been under direct British administration, yet they were subject to British rule. They maintained meticulously data on many aspects of India from education to geography etc. So you are wrong…

There is no such thing as sati in Hindu scriptures, which are essentially four Vedas, Upanishads, Geeta, Patanjali’s YogaShastra, and Tantra.

Says who ??? you.....and you say I have to read more.

Mahabharatha (Gita comes from this text), Puranas are also considered as Hindu scriptures. Infact Atharva Veda Samhita and Upanishads mention Puranas and Itihaasas as God breathed.

Patanjali's yoga Shastra is NOT recognized as scripture at all by some Hindu sects and neither is tantra recognized by many orthodox schools.

It is the self-serving priestly class of ancient India that has given it religious colour. It is the first attempt successfully at gender discrimination in Hindu society (which thankfully ended). There were Hindus in rest of India, Cambodia, Indinesia, Laos who have never practised it.

As you said above, Mahabharatha recognizes this. The first mention of Sati is made in the story of Daksha Prajapati and his daughter Sati where he burns herself through mystic powers.... The name itself comes from this story and it is a voluntary act...

Are you plain ignorant or just pretending to be one. Read this dear continuum

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122003703800.htm .......

Did I say there were NO atrocities committed by Hindus on fellow Hindus presently. All communities have their fair share of criminals. The present condition in certain states is driven by criminal elements who try to maintain their status-quo.

My statement was opposed to your statement which I quote below...

barbaric custom of Lower Caste and Upper Caste in which lower caste hindus were tortured very ruthlessly in the past.

Your statement gives the sense that as though all Hindus (or even majority) Universally practiced this.

So I said "tortured very ruthlessly in the past" has NO evidence at all.

There are many reports of foreigners from Greek and Chinese to Muslims who travelled across India and have never reported Hindus "tortured very ruthlessly" a certain class of Hindus.

I am aware of clashes between Hindu tribes.

What a fantastic logic. Then according to your flawed logic you should consider all animals which are of use to humans like Bull, Goat, Dog, Donkey, Horse as either your Mother or Father.

Cow dairy products were used extensively in religious rituals by Hindus. So it was given more importance and unlike other animals.

Eclipse according to Hindusim:
WHEN THE gods and the demons churned the milky ocean in days of yore, nectar came out of it. ...... To avenge this betrayal, Rahu and Ketu periodically eclipse the sun and the moon.

Not all stories in Puranas are taken literally, even in orthodox schools of Hinduism.

Infact founders of orthodox schools of Hinduism like Shankaracharya and Madhvacharya have stated as early as 800-1300 years back, that when scriptures contradict direct observation, scriptures have to be interpreted differently or rejected.

So even ancient Hindus knew that some stories are NOT taken literally. This same canto from Purana talks about movements of planets etc. They used stories to simultaneously explain moral lessons as well as movements of planetary objects in some way.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samudra_manthan#Symbolism_of_Samudra_manthan

In describing movements of planets, Rahu and Ketu are reduced to imaginary points in space to predict solar and lunar eclipses. This is well known among traditional and orthodox followers of Hinduism.

sanskrit.org/www/Astronomy/Rahu.html

At the time of the eclipse hindus bath in sacred rivers, after the eclipse they clean their houses, vessels, etc., .....and the ability to put aside egotism to accept idioticities in the religions.

These beliefs seem to come from astrology in Hinduism...

hinduismtoday.com/archives/1998/2/1998-2-22.shtml

Apostate wrote:

As rightly said by Ali

“And also you are right about the fact that people generally are better in evaluating the beliefs of others than their own. It’s that we humans are selecively rational. People cannot see the absurdity of their own beliefs.”

This is very true. Actually I myself should not be commenting on this since I am considered by many people to fit into the category into which you have mentioned, but at least I acknowledge my beliefs are absurd in the minds of other people. But is the difference between me and some people who will argue that camel urine does have medicinal value, even though that is not the case.

Philip Seanz

"Dear Ibrahim, with me you would not have had a problem since you were acting like a human being from the start. When I see a human being, I first see him as a decent person regardless of his “religion.” A decent human being remains a friend, regardless of his religious background. So you would have been treated fairly by me from the beginning. Have a good day, and may God bless you."

I agree with Philip.

To Apostate:
“I have never seen a single Hindu drinking cows urine.”

You not seeing any Hindu drinking cows urine does not mean it does not occur

read this http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050505/asp/nation/story_4698664.asp
>> One question to you: Why don't 18 puranas, 4 vedas, and Gita, and Upanishad do not talk about drinking cow's urine? Till todate I haven't personally seen any Hindu drinking cow's urine. I have also lived in the villages of India and have never seen a single person drinking cow's urine. OTOH, they dry the cow-dung and use it as a source of heating. Let me tell you something: There are many communist channels in India like NDTV, IBN, and Outlook that carry abnoxious news items. Western media is not far behind. About the Mumbai carnage BBC said it was due to mistreatment of Muslims in India. Do you believe BBC then? Similarly, according to scriptures meat-eating is prohibited for those who are in the mode of goodness. But, we see some Hindus eating meat. Does that mean all Hindus are meat eaters?

silenzer says:
“I agree that cow is considered sacred. I shall explain the logic behind it; it is up to you to take it or not. Once the baby stops drinking its mother’s milk, cow becomes the only source of milk and hence acts as your mother. Cow dung is dried and used a source of heating to cook (you can even see it in Indian villages). Cow and bull are used for tilling lands.”

What a fantastic logic. Then according to your flawed logic you should consider all animals which are of use to humans like Bull, Goat, Dog, Donkey, Horse as either your Mother or Father.
>> Apostate, in Hinduism every animal is considered as important as any other human being. You need to think with the cool head. I am sure you accepted the logic on why Hindus consider cow as sacred. It is their belief. No one is forcing you to accept it. Similarly, mankind must respect every other species for the well-being of nature. In deserts, camel becomes the most useful animal. Your Prophet had asked his companions to drink camel's urine (there is a hadees for that). That is a different issue. What I say here is respect the animal kingdom; don't open slaughterhouses, kill animals, and create global warming.

In short, we don't treat other animals as mother or father, but we respect their existence. Is that clear?

Eclipse according to Hindusim:
WHEN THE gods and the demons churned the milky ocean in days of yore, nectar came out of it. Lord Vishnu assumed the form of Mohini, a charming lady, deluded the demons and distributed the nectar only among the gods. But Rahu had disguised himself as a god. The sun and the moon pointed this out to Mohini who immediately slashed off the demon’s head. Since the nectar had by then already reached up to the neck, he did not die. Thus the head came to be known as Rahu and the body as Ketu. To avenge this betrayal, Rahu and Ketu periodically eclipse the sun and the moon.
>> Look buddy, you have neither quoted vedas nor puranas nor upanishads to buttress your claim. All you have done is Ctrl C+ Ctrl V from websites. For an authentic research on ecclipses I cited a website (http://www.vedicastronomy.net/mahabharatha.htm). You are afraid of discussing about the exhaustive references and planetary positions given there. ARE YOU AFRAID OF DISCUSSING ABOUT THE ABOVE LINK?

At the time of the eclipse hindus bath in sacred rivers, after the eclipse they clean their houses, vessels, etc., and take a bath before they start cooking.
>> A normal priest would do this every day and not essentially on ecclipse days. What is wrong in taking bath before cooking something? I take shower two times a day, be it the day of ecclipse or holiday. Do you take bath only on Fridays just before going to mosque?

Poojas are performed to prevent the ill effects of the eclipses, it is feared by hindu believers that pregnant women will either abort or deliver babies with congenital abnormalities if they go out during the eclipse.
>> References from scriptures please. Otherwise it is irrelevant

It doesn’t require a genius but common sense and the ability to put aside egotism to accept idioticities in the religions.
>> If idiocities come from scriptures then it should be rejected. For example, to shun your false claim on ecclipses I quoted http://www.vedicastronomy.net/mahabharatha.htm . Now you are so afraid of discussing it that you started discussing about something else. Jaggernaut, eih?

Apostate, I really would like to get your comments about the research on Mahabharath war (eclipses etc) mentioned in the above website. Please don't run away. Being born in India, you still speak Hindus-speaking languages, eat Hindu-discovered spices and dishes, and follow the culture of Bharat-varsha.

Silenzer

P.S: Will Durant, world's most famous historian said " “India was the mother of our race and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages. She was the mother of our philosophy, mother through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics, mother through Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity, mother through village communities of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all.”

And his saying was immediately proved by a fanatic hindu.

Continuum said........

Read this ...... nirmukta.com/2008/10/04/cows-excreta-as-medicine-insult-to-humanity/

How does this article, published by some lay man, disprove the scientific research done and even a patent being given for cow urine extract as bio-enhancer ?

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6410059/fulltext.html

Infact the author of the article himself has commented that his article does NOT disprove the patent... his only problem is with quack medicines in markets and other claims.

Infact there are many publications listed in that article all of which suggest certain medicinal properties for cow urine extract, which is what is used in Ayurveda.

Continuum says in his comments:Christians have a 1600-2000 year long history of calling every other religious rituals as superstitious while NOT looking at their own religious practices

Same thing applies to you as well Mr. Continuum.

How ? Did I make comments on other religions for 1600-2000 years.

My criticism on any religion is always on intolerance, NOT on religious rituals.

And his saying was immediately proved by a fanatic hindu.

Continuum said……..

Read this …… nirmukta.com/2008/10/04/cows-excreta-as-medicine-insult-to-humanity/

How does this article, published by some lay man, disprove the scientific research done and even a patent being given for cow urine extract as bio-enhancer ?

patentstorm.us/patents/6410059/fulltext.html

Infact the author of the article himself has commented that his article does NOT disprove the patent… his only problem is with quack medicines in markets and other claims.

Infact there are many publications listed in that article all of which suggest certain medicinal properties for cow urine extract, which is what is used in Ayurveda.

Continuum says in his comments:Christians have a 1600-2000 year long history of calling every other religious rituals as superstitious while NOT looking at their own religious practices

Same thing applies to you as well Mr. Continuum.

How ? Did I make comments on other religions for 1600-2000 years.

My criticism on any religion is always on intolerance, NOT on religious rituals.

To Hekina:

silenzer (To Hekina: Sati system didn’t exist at the time of Mahabharath (3129 BC) as is evident from the fact that Kunti, the widow of Pandu, lived with her sons (Pandavas) after the death of her husband)

Hekina: You are wrong. Madri, another wife of Pandu committed sati when he died. Kunti wanted to commit sati too, but was prevented to do so by Madri to take care of children who were small (three of Kunti’s and two of Madri’s).
>> Madri died of bereavement. It is not reported as Sati. Abhimanyu died on the battlefield. However, his wife gave birth to Parikshit and lived with Pandavas until she died. Nowhere in Mahabharath do we see the wives of dead soldiers jumping on to funeral pyres. Well, in Ramayan, don't we see the wives of demised Dasharath living with their children? Even after the death of Ravan or Meghanad, their wives never immolated themselves. The act of Madri is equivalent to suicide. Duryodhana and Dushyasana's wives stayed in the royal kindom even after their husbands' death.

The first largescale immolation started with the arrival of Muslim enemies from Arabia.

Actually, that is the first reported fact of someone committing sati.
>> The term sati doesn't exist in scriptures.

During the time of Mahabharata, India and hindu civilization were already in a state of decline (to peak again later after Buddha during Chandra Gupta/Chanakya, Ashoka, etc).
>> Agreed
That is why, Krishna’s Geeta was called vendanta later on (a thing of this nature coming into existence after a very long time post-Upanishads).
>> Gita contains everything that is mentioned in vedas and upanishads. And hence it is called Vedanta (conclusion of vedas)

Dear Continuum, when Apostate talked about solar and lunar ecclipses, I presented a solid evidence and scholarly work from Mahabharath (http://www.vedicastronomy.net/mahabharatha.htm). Ramayan and Mahabharath are revered by all Hindus. If Apostate thinks vedic astronomy is gibberish, THEN HE SHOULD REFUTE THIS ARTICLE. He cannot refute the planetary position details calculated using Load Star software. At the most, he can pick newspaper articles (usually commies and western media) and present as evidence.

To Apostate: The presence of various castes today in India is really bad. However, human society functions perfectly when 4 varnas work together. The 4 varnas are intellectual class, warrior class, business class, and labour class. You cannot find a single CIVILIZED society in the world where these 4 classes do not exist. Scriptures describe about only 4 classes of men based on their abilities and NOT by birth. I stand by this.

Take into account other religions: Islam and Christianity. Islam is divided into 74 sects whereas Christianity has over 40 sects. Shias fight with sunnis; both of them fight with Ahmedias; the three will fight with Deobandis and so on. Protestants do not worship in Catholic church. Mormons do not enter any other rival churches. Each and every sect in Xnity do not have cordial relationship with each other. Are these then sects or castes or groups?

Apostate is really NO apostate.... probably a xian or muslim acting as apostate...

I had a sneaking suspision that Apostate and Reader are the same people. I might be wrong.

Ibrahim and continuum,

Apostate and Reader are professionals ass lickers sent by Allah. When Allah found them in a pig farm a few block from Ka'ba in Mecca. They were licking ice cream cone filled with camel shiit. Allah took them back for personal amusements. He had "fun" with both of them before he made them licked his ass. Boy.... Allah was disgusting.

No wonder Allah didn't answers prayers from Gaza. He is too busy with his new toys.

But... too bad, good times won't last, these 2 bastaards bit Allah's ass instead of licking as instructed by Allah. Therefore they were sent down here as a punishments to lick everybody's ass.

Apostate and Reader, no thanks for me.

there is a difference between rituals and superstition rituals are symbolic of something for example the hajj is symbolic to muslims who believe mecca is the center of the earth this is also why muslims pray to mecca however this is stupid because everyone know only a flat earth can have a center an islamic supperstition is enter the bath room with the right foot and exit with the left if you ask a muslim why they do that they will say we are told to in the hadith but they will never explain the symbolism because there is none its a superstition it doesnt make any difference how you enter the bathroom

the symbolism of baptism is that we are dead to the old sinful life and alive to a new life in christ also the reason christians eat bread and drink wine is to symbolise the last supper the jewish passover is symbolic of the story in exodus of the angel of death passing over and other traditions are all symbolic of something

thiest

You said (there is a difference between rituals and superstition rituals are symbolic of something for example the hajj is symbolic to muslims who believe mecca is the center of the earth this is also why muslims pray to mecca however this is stupid because everyone know only a flat earth can have a center an islamic supperstition is enter the bath room with the right foot and exit with the left if you ask a muslim why they do that they will say we are told to in the hadith but they will never explain the symbolism because there is none its a superstition it doesnt make any difference how you enter the bathroom )

Right foot in and left foot out ? No problem, but what about left hand wipe the ass with the Quran and right hand flush it down the toilet ? Will it offend Allah ?

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You said (the symbolism of baptism is that we are dead to the old sinful life and alive to a new life in christ also the reason christians eat bread and drink wine is to symbolise the last supper the jewish passover is symbolic of the story in exodus of the angel of death passing over and other traditions are all symbolic of something)

Ok so after being washed by the holly water, the pedophile priest has no more sin to rape the boy the night before that. And this priest is freed of sin to rape the same or different boy on the same night. And then they will wash themselves with holly water on the penis and there they go again. A brand new sinless pedophile priest. No wonder they get to continue their insane pleasure for 20 long years in the fuccking church. Now I understand why.

Conclusions : If you are a Criminal and serial killer and you believe in baptism, then all you have to do is prepare yourself with yourself more HOLLY water so that you get to repeat your sin again and again without being worried to burn in hell and torture during judgment day. Amen

Dear Ibrahim,
Congratulations on being the decent human being you have always been!

I have to agree that some of the comments about Muslims make me cringe on this site. Maybe not the same ones as you, but maybe so.

Slurs like Mobots etc. I take no offense of, because I think it accurately describes the mentality. Shortenings and versions of the name Mohammad I do all the time, and personally find quite stress-relieving and gratifying. Descriptive names like paedophile and bandit, are, well simply true. Maybe not the best method for getting Muslims to listen...

I AM offended by comments to kill all Muslims, bomb/nuke them all. Sometimes, they are even worse than that. Insighting hatred can have the horrific consequence of innocent victims.

I agree with Ali Sina that Islam is a house of cards built on sand. There are many secret apostates out there, and fence sitters. I

Blowing up their families could only lead to more extremism. I am a peaceful person, but I can't say how I would act if my family were murdered by fanatics such as yourselves. who advocate such things.