Harvard educator Samuel Huntington, the most controversial political scientist of the past two decades, breathed his last on 28 December 2008, aged 81. A prophetic genius to some and an evil war-mongering ideologue to others, it is an opportune time to revisit the controversial works of Huntington.
With Marxist-Communist regimes’ collapsed ending the Cold War, Francis Fukuyama argued in his influential thesis, The End of History, in 1989 that liberal democracy may signal the end-point of humankind’s ideological evolution and the final form of governance, which would eventually be adopted globally. Fukuyama’s thesis had two seminal assumptions: a) Triumph of civilized liberal democracy globally, and b) Emergence of a nonconflictual world civilization.
Huntington’s Civilizational Clash theory (1993) challenged both assumptions of Fukuyama. Regarding Fukuyama’s presumed triumph of civilized liberal democracy globally, Huntington emphasized that “Law and order”, “the first prerequisite of Civilization”, were evaporating or under threat everywhere—China, Japan and the United States included. Globally, “Civilization seems in many respects to be yielding to barbarism… a global Dark Age possibly descending on humanity,” he wrote. Opposed to Fukuyama’s proposed emergence of a nonconflictual world civilization, Huntington emphasized that conflicts were not over, but future conflicts would likely be fought along civilizational fault-lines over cultural or religious differences, not between states over ideological (political) or economic reasons. “The clash of civilizations will dominate global politics. The fault lines between civilizations will be the battle lines of the future,” he predicted.
Identifying seven to eight major civilizations: Indian, Chinese, Asian, Islamic, Western etc., Huntington emphasized that, instead of converging toward universal liberalism globally, human consciousness within these civilizations is increasingly parochializing: people are becoming increasingly conscious of their cultural, religious or civilizational values and differences.
His thesis gets a significant space for Islamic resurgence, simply because religious revivalism amongst Muslims in recent decades much outweighs the rejuvenation of civilizational or religious consciousness amongst other peoples. Islam has Bloody Borders, Muslims are involved in majority of the world’s conflicts, said Huntington and evidently so. “The overwhelming majority of fault line conflicts, however, have taken place along the boundary lopping across Eurasia and Africa that separates Muslims from non-Muslims,” he writes, adding, that “wherever one looks along the perimeter of Islam, Muslims have problems living peaceably with their neighbors.”
Although Huntington analyzed how different civilizations would likely interplay in reshaping the world-order in the emerging era, his analysis regarding Islam has become a bone of contention. Critics have attacked his whole thesis as a forced construction of an inevitable Islam–West conflict, nonexistent in reality. His Clash of Civilizations, argues British academician Francis Robinson, is based on “the old Western polemic against Islam, Western fears of Islam, and a strong dose of Orientalism.” Robinson emphasizes that “there is a long history of the Muslim and the Christian civilizations drawing on each other, and being enriched by each other, and this is a process which, whatever the rhetoric, still continues.” With Communism brought down, many critics have argued that argued that the inherently hegemonic and militaristic West needed a new enemy: Huntington’s thesis was an effort to invent one. It set out “to identify “new sources” of international conflicts in the post-Cold War world,” claims Dr. Ismail Hossein-Zadeh of Drake University. Edward Said, the renowned anti-Orientalist, mockingly called Huntington’s thesis “The Clash of Ignorance”. He concluded: “‘The Clash of Civilizations’ thesis is a gimmick like ‘The War of the Worlds,’ better for reinforcing defensive self-pride than for critical understanding of the bewildering interdependence of our time.”
After the September 11, 2001 (9/11) attacks in the United States, media became abuzz with Huntington’s thesis: his supporters saw his prophesies being fulfilled; his opponents intensified their attacks on him for deliberately creating a paradigm that may fuel a fateful Islam-West conflict. His more avowed conspiratorial critics suggested that, prompted by Huntington’s thesis, the U.S. administration carried out the 9/11 attacks for advancing America’s hegemonic interests: the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, for example. Ayaan Hirsi Ali coined Huntington’s dilemma as follows: “Foretelling the future can be fun for astrologists, prophets and crystal-ball gazers. For academics, it is not. If you get it right, you will be damned like Samuel Huntington. If you get it wrong, you will be called a certified idiot.”
Many critics have trashed the idea of Civilization Clash, especially one between Islam and the West. Christian Europe, not Islam, they argue, has been historically intolerant to non-Christians—Jews in Europe, Muslims in Spain. At the same time, Christians, Jews and even Heathens found tolerance, peace and prosperity in Muslim lands. In the abhorrent colonial era, they assert, Christian West captured much of the Muslim and non-Muslim lands. Islam, therefore, can pose no threat to the West. Former U.S. President Bill Clinton asserted that the West has no problems with Islam. To this, Huntington retorted: “The relations between Islam and Christianity, both orthodox and Western, have often have been stormy. Each has been the other’s Other. The twentieth century conflict between Liberal Democracy and Marxist-Leninism is only a fleeting and superficial historical phenomenon compared to the continuing and deeply conflictual relations between Islam and Christianity.”
The avid critics of Huntington are either ignorant or in denial to assert that there was no problem between Islam and the West. A historical investigation proves Huntington thoroughly correct. Islam’s birth under Prophet Muhammad was conflictual with the Pagans, Jews and Christians of Arabia: Pagans were annihilated during his life-time; Jews were expelled or slaughtered and enslaved; Christians were attacked, forcibly converted, or prohibited to baptize their children to turn them all Muslim.
After the prophet’s death, Islam’s conflict intensified and spread far afield against peoples of all creed, color and race. In two decades, Islam came in conflict with the Christian West when Muslims attacked Mediterranean Islands in 652 CE; it has remained so except for rare brief respites. Who can deny the Muslim occupation of Spain, Sicily, Greece, Hungary, East Europe and the Ottoman attempts to overrun Central and West Europe twice as they seized Vienna in 1529 and 1683? Who can deny the existence of the Crusades, the European colonial occupation—in which Islamic countries became the dominant victim?
Huntington foresaw a solidifying Muslim vs. non-Muslim conflict globally, although the idea of Islam-West conflict has become a buzzword. Undoubtedly, his prophecies vis-à-vis Islam have been turning a reality, if it haven’t been so already. More astonishing is his prediction regarding other civilizations, other religions. Hinduism—historically an apolitical, tolerant creed—is becoming increasingly political, jingoistic and militant. While Hindu-Muslim clashes have been rife over the decades, often fueled by Muslims, militant Hindus in recent months have attacked Christians in various parts of India, killing a number of them. Buddhists, the most pacifist creed, is also becoming increasingly political, jingoistic and even militant. Buddhist monks rallied last year for making Buddhism the State Religion of Thailand. Militant Buddhists in Sri Lanka, instigated by monks, have been increasing their attacks on Christians; annoyed by Christian proselytization, they have been attacking and persecuting Christians. A Buddhist mob, led by monks, destroyed a church in July 2008.
The whole gamut of Huntington’s thesis—i.e., emergence of conflicts amongst different peoples inspired by cultural and religious differences—is turning a reality; it will only get worse in coming decades. Even Huntington might have been surprised that his prophesies started turning a reality so soon. He knew the role cultures would play in shaping the emerging world-order. That’s why he probably opposed the Iraq invasion not to antagonize another culture, although his many critics have held him culpable for fueling the whole conflict.
The Clash of Civilization is not Huntington’s only theory that has proved prophetic. His first book, “The Soldier and the State: The Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations”, published in 1957, endorsed the role of civilian authority over military institutions. Although attracted repulsive reviews at the time, it turned highly influential meriting a 50th anniversary symposium.
“He tended to have views that were unconventional and remarkably prescient. He would have a finger on the pulse of where events were headed,” Boston Globe quotes James Perry, Huntington’s former graduate student. And undoubtedly so!
He was a prophetically genius political scientist of our time. It may take a while to fill his shoes.
written by M A Khan
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130 Responses to “Huntington’s Prophecies: A Tribute to an Outstanding Political Genius”
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January 5th, 2009 at 8:28 am
“Hinduism—historically an apolitical, tolerant creed—is becoming increasingly political, jingoistic and militant…..A Buddhist mob, led by monks, destroyed a church in July 2008.”
Well can you blame the Hindus and Buddhists alone? Christians have a habit of going around and demonizing every non-Christian just like Muslims and Christians have even made terrorist attacks against Hindus and Buddhists. I wonder why this point was NOT highlighted in the article. Buddhists in Sri-Lanka and Hindus in India are reacting to Christian violence for past 10 years. Orissa violence did not start without provocation for 10 years. A Christian member of parliament in India was arrested for plotting and murdering Hindu Swami Laxmananda. Similarly in Sri-Lanka Christian churches are involved with terrorist orgs like LTTE supplying arms to them. In Thailand, Buddhists are forced to do this because of repeated Islamic attacks. It is Christianity and Islam which is forcing Eastern religion followers to take actions.Christian missionaries use their huge loads of wealth for conversion. When Tsunami hit India, Sri-Lanka and Indonesia, these missionaries went to these parts and offered help under the condition that they convert to Christianity. Hindus from India, Buddhists from Sri-Lanka and even Muslims from Indonesia drove these missionaries away and were reported in major news papers. So please spare us the “holier than thou” attitude to us Hindus and Buddhists. Both these communities have been serving poor in their community and others silently without advertising. Do not write bull shit without evidence. http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/24shoba.htm
January 5th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Christian charity in action.
Conversion attempts in the time of grief Shobha Warrier in Nagapattinam |
When I entered one of the rows of temporary shelters built for tsunami victims in Pattancherry village in Nagapattinam, I witnessed a minor scuffle in a corner. Some inmates had surrounded a Christian priest and two nuns, and a war of words was going on. “We are Hindus and we want to live as Hindus. Why do you want to convert us?” some young men shouted at the missionaries. The priest said, “We are not here to convert people. We were only offering prayers for your peace of mind.” But flashing some pamphlets distributed among them by the three, the inmates snorted, “What does this mean?” The priest had no answer. “Why do you enter our houses and pray?,” they asked. “Your nuns do this when our women are alone at home. We know how to pray.” The young men were extremely furious. The priest was unruffled. But the nuns were shaken by the sudden surge of animosity from the muscular men. The scuffle went on till the three were forced to leave the place. Day two: As I was visiting the areas close to the sea that were badly affected by the tsunami waves, I saw another angry scene outside another temple in another village. Police jeeps were seen parked outside the temple in Samandapettai. So was a van. Villagers were complaining to the police about a missionary group to which the van belonged. They said the group had taken away to another place their belongings and the relief they had got from nongovernmental organisations and the government, which they had kept inside the temple, because they refused to listen to its missionaries. “They want to try their luck at some other place. Since we resisted, they took away our things. We won’t allow this to happen,” they said. “Why don’t you arrest all of them?” the villagers asked the police. The villagers’ torrent of angry words continued. “We have lost everything to the sea. They said they would help us if we followed their religion. What logic is this? Are they here to help us or change our religion?” The police couldn’t cool their tempers. The group said it did not take away the belongings of the villagers and insisted that the contents inside the van belonged to it. That evening, some villagers came with the news that the police had arrested the priest they had confronted the previous day. Apparently some angry villagers had gheraoed him, and forced the police to arrest him. “He shouldn’t be doing this when we are grieving, when we are suffering. Everything has its time and place,” a villager said. When I wanted to talk to the panchayat president and locals of the Karakkalmedu village at Karaikkal, they called me inside the village temple. That was where they met outsiders. The temple has become the centre of activity in the village. Before we started talking, one of them opened the door to the sanctum sanctorum and pointed to a mark left by the strong tsunami waves. They told me that water stopped at the feet of their deity and then receded. “We might have suffered, but our Goddess saved us.” This belief had taken the villagers all the more closer to their deity. “That is why it hurts us when others come and tell us that it was because of our God and our belief that we suffered. We won’t let anyone exploit us when we are down,” the panchayat members asserted.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:40 am
I wonder why the author does NOT cite any Christian terrorist activities as an example too. I am not ascribing any motive to him.
Christian attacks on Buddhists
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html
http://tricycleblog.blogspot.com/2004/08/christian-attacks-on-buddhism-in-north.html
Christian Terrorism against Hindus/Buddhists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India. The NLFT were declared a terrorist organization under the Indian Prevention of Terrorism Act in 2002. The NLFT manifesto says that they want to expand what they describe as the kingdom of God and Christ in Tripura.[
The Nagaland Rebels is a coalition of rebel groups operating in Nagaland, North-East India. The largest of these is the National Socialist Council of Nagaland-Isak-Muivah (NSCN-IM), which is fighting for the establishment of a “Nagaland for Christ”.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Christian charity in action.
Some inmates had surrounded a Christian priest and two nuns, and a war of words was going on. “We are Hindus and we want to live as Hindus. Why do you want to convert us?”
continuum, your islamic tactics don’t work and your ignorance is shameless. I think it’s high time you were banned from this site and found another place where you can practice your taqiyya.
So here we have more lies about priests and nuns converting Hindus. First, priests and nuns are only Catholic. As a former Catholic, I don’t speak of a Protestant clergyman calling him a priest: he’s a pastor or a minister. Christian priest sounds ridiculous, because there can only be Catholic priests when one speaks of Christian clergymen. An Orthodox priest can be called a priest, but the right word is pope.
To make appropriate distinctions isn’t just a futile matter of terminology: knowing who is who and which is which makes you understand if people like continuum and those who write the stories above are worthy of credit. For instance, neither continuum nor the people who invented the story reported by him can make sense of the difference between Catholic and Christian and merrily mix things up so that whatever they say becomes preposterous.
Now, it is IMPOSSIBLE to become a Catholic on the spot in the same way as a non-Moslem becomes a Moslem by pronouncing the shahada. If anybody wants to become a Catholic, their conversion will not be accepted before 3 or 4 years, that’s to say until they’re sure of the implications of their choice. A conversion may also be rejected.
Nuns cannot convert anyone: before becoming a Catholic it is necessary to be baptised and without receiving this sacrament nobody can be a member of the Catholic Church. Without baptism no-one can be a Catholic. Nuns CANNOT baptise: not only can’t they convert people on the spot, but they can’t even administer the Sacraments, of which the baptism is one.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
It is surprising that the author MA Khan has conveniently ignored the genocide practiced by Christianity against the rest of the world. Will he look back into history and tell us why Greek, Roman, Mayan, Incas, Aztec, and many other civilizations were wiped out from the face of the earth? I know some Bible-poodles will say “our holy Jesus didn’t teach that in Bible; some people hijacked Xnity and destroyed civilizations”. This is very similar to what Muslims say about Islam. Remember, Europe was in dark ages under the clutches of Christianity before some reformers voiced for the separation of the state from religion (Read it as Christianity). Christianity, just like Islam, is a higly intolerant, monotheistic cult. It ridicules non-christians as pagans, heathens, fit for hell etc.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
As I have repeatedly mentioned and never tire of mentioning of this.Both christianity and Islam are evil ideologies and base their evilness on the evil twain of Bible and qran. Time and agin I have posted the evil vreses of B & Q .Fundies of both these religions have not been able to refute what I write here, but are quick to use potty mouths. I believe that’s the deficiency of these followers who follow vile, venomous, violent qrand and bible. Qran derives its sustenance form Bible and bible is replica of Torah! All these fellas think their scriptures are divine and I have shown how they all copies the old fairy tales from Hinduism and pasted as divine revealations. I do not even for a second believe that hinduism is more divine than the Bible or qrandic followers.But at the least I give it to hindus to gotten over the violent teachings and follow peaceful spiritual side of religion.
Bible and qrandic followers make fun of each other forgetting that each is calling another an idiot for the same reason!
Qrand the toilet tissue says earth is flat and so does the Bible! The crusaders like to peddle Bible as more scientific than qrand , forgetting that they have copied even the fairy tales from Hinduism!
All religions are man Made. period.there is as much divinity in them as there is perfume in toilet tissue after usage.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
religion is a disease truth is the cure.all religion r man created.hindus were raped killed and what not for over 1400 yrs.christians raped hindu women,killed millions and destroyed thousands of churces in south india.
same way muslims also did same,so hindus r just paying back,dont say hindus r militant,say they r finallyreacting and wake up from sleep.
pls wake up stupid hindus before sonia sells u out to china/saudi arabia.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Huttington’s analysis cannot be said to be unbiased. He seems to be openly siding with the western and christian values. The fact is that mythologies of all religions are fairy-tales. However they do contain certain messages for righteous and ethical conduct. When it comes to spiritualism, true spiritualism is always secular; For the spirit in each of us is the manifestation of the same supreme being, or the same supreme super-conciousness that pervades the entire universe. When you try to understand and be one with that supreme spirits, you cannot have hatred towards other fellow human beings.
It is only the clash of cultural one-up-man-ship or the clash of cultural egos that gives rise to conflict. This clash of civilizational egos occurs only when one culture wants to establish its supremacy and to dominate and subdue other cultures. It soon degenerates from a mere assertion of ethnic or cultural identity to subtle desire for dominance. Thus the noble sounding objective of cultural expression slowly but surely takes the form of political assertion.
Philosophical values of altruism and peaceful co-existence in a spirit of genuine harmonious spirit of brotherhood motivate but a miniscule group of saintly persons. They are always in a miniscule minority in all the cultures and they would never try to spread or propogate any one culture in preference to any other culture. Their concerns are always divorced from political activities.
Both Christianity and Islam have perceptible agenda of proselytising and increasing their followers. The only difference is that Islam pursues its political agenda of ultimate Dar-ul-Islam and direct manner, whereas, Christian missionaries do it in a subtle and sophisticated fashion as is clear from their “relief” activities in the Tsunami affected areas.
The only truely peaceful philosophies are Budhdhism, Jainism, and the Sanathan Dharma (which has been given the name of Hinduism by western scholars), which do not have any political agenda of proselitysing. In this way they are a-political philosophies and as a consequence the followers of these cultures have become endangered “species”.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Proudkafir, I am back from fishing!
Fundies of both these religions have not been able to refute what I write here…..
Aaagh! I am frustrated of you putting Christianity and Islam on the same plate. People wrongly regard Islam as an Abrahamic religion which is not. The bible says through Abraham God was to be blessing the world, is Islam a blessing?
Judaism and Christianity are the true Abrahamic religions and you will know this through its blessings. Science and Technology spring from Judeao-Christian culture, Jews and Christians contribute overwhelmingly in the world nobel-peace laureates, world economy is generally controlled by countries with majority christians, freedom is rampant in majority christian countries, etc. Now Proudkafir you may argue otherwise but you cannot deny this. Are you a Hindu?
January 5th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Christianization efforts in catastrophe devastated areas…….
I think it is not a bad thing to offer relief in these areas, however as I said before, it is impossible to hide the message of hope in Christ Jesus. It will be a bad thing to exchange a relief for the message, I mean to tell people to become christians in order to be given a material relief, because it is unbiblical. But I think it will be twice as bad going into these areas, find people ignorant of Jesus Christ, make an extensive efforts of relief activities and go away without sharing these Good News! lol!
January 5th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
“continuum, your islamic tactics don’t work and your ignorance is shameless. I think it’s high time you were banned from this site and found another place where you can practice your taqiyya.”
Yes yes….Anybody who exposes Christianity along with pedophile prophet followers are Muslims…LOL….Catholics are christians….Protestants are no better than Catholics. They have their own terrorist organiztions like NLFT, NSCN etc. I am NOT claiming anything without evidence. You are foolishly going into technicality of words such as priests etc. Do you think non-Christians give hoots about these things.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mayans and Incas, Paganism and Atheism are one and the same. These are false and pagan religions that existed even before the birth of Judeo-Christian belief. None of these false religions even until today have overcome the Judeo-Christian belief for a reason and that is because there is something missing in them, all of them. All of these false religions do not give us the humility to see human beings as a fallen beings in which help is impossible to achieve from ourselves.
Hinduism, as I noticed that this site has been plagued by many of them and would rather veer off the subject to attacking the Christian faith instead of Islam, is a belief born upon the arrogance of men. It will try to explain the intricacies of life and its meaning through meandering Hindu terminologies which make your brain smells like curry and Indian spices by the time you’re done reading their scriptures. Why not translate those words to a more understandable terms in which all the languages in the world can relate to? The same quality can be seen in Islam. False religions always wanted their readers to get confused and say, “wow, these scriptures have to be truth, because as a human being, I can’t understand crap about what it was trying to relay to me.”
Hindus would also say, “Brahma is everywhere and everything, even in the hearts of those who want to behead me, that’s why I will just give up Bangladesh, Pakistan, and eventually Kashmir to the Muslims, because I respect them, can I have some more chicken curry please? By the way, you untouchables (poverty stricken Hindus) are cursed people because of what you’ve done in your prior life, so you better not stop cleaning our sewer system. Oh crap, the freakin’ Christian missionaries converted them to Christianity, who’s gonna clean our toilets now? I hate these Christian missionaries messing up our way of life.”
Like I said before, India has been plagued with poverty and corruption, and the best Hindus can do is cover these ills of society with colorful festival of spices, the same way Hindus cover up the real enemy which is Islam. This is like pouring curry powder to human manure to cover its smell. India’s economy improved drastically before the global recession and yet the ratio in which Hindus contributed to global charities to help the needy especially their own did not change a bit. This is because of greed and corruption, the ills in which human beings do not have the ability to overcome. The Christian faith however will bare the good fruit of generosity. Christians appreciate the blessings in which we are endowed upon by our belief, therefore we take it as our responsibility to share it with others. Why do you think the USA is the number one contributors of charities in the whole world and not India? It is because the majority of the US religion is Christianity.
My advice to Hindus are to leave this false belief and be brave and face the truth. Islam and Hinduism are both pagan religions. Both are your enemies and not the Judeo-Christian belief. Christians are telling you things you do not like because we care for your salvation. If Christians don’t care we wouldn’t be converting your so called “untouchables” into Christians. We would have just left them as it is, cursed Hindus destined to clean your sewer pipes for life until their sins are forgiven according to your Brahma foolishness.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
It’s great to see faithfreedom.org in a new avatar!
In response to to the above post:
It will try to explain the intricacies of life and its meaning through meandering Hindu terminologies which make your brain smells like curry and Indian spices by the time you’re done reading their scriptures.
Ah! So the Christian scriptures are very “clear”??? They are not at all confusing?? You’re telling me that the Christian scriptures are “perfect”? You don’t have any “crappy” stuff at all? I believe what you are trying to say is about the “law of karma”? While extreme belief in fatalistic karma is “dangerous” and “insane”, you could try what Krishna tells about Karma:
“Your only duty is to act (right to work) and not to hanker after the fruits (or the results) thereof.’ (Gita Chapter II: 47) Be not the purpose of your actions. Let not the work bind and blind you. To work is to worship; with total non-attachment and selfless attitude.”
By the way, you untouchables (poverty stricken Hindus) are cursed people because of what you’ve done in your prior life.Oh crap, the freakin’ Christian missionaries converted them to Christianity, who’s gonna clean our toilets now?
Untouchability?! Perfect! By the way, you also have “brahmin” toilet cleaners you know. You could read this article:
http://www.andhranews.net/India/2007/May/10-Brahmins-today-934.asp
Speaking of untouchability, could you perhaps explain why it took the US so long to elect a black man for a president? Even then, he is an “African-American”! Look who’s talking:) India had its first “Dalit” president in 1997 (K. R. Narayanan). So though India has had its share of “mistakes”, it has admitted to them and is trying to move on.
Why do you think the USA is the number one contributors of charities in the whole world and not India? It is because the majority of the US religion is Christianity.
Actually there is still a couple of months for April 1! With all due respect, do you seriously think that the US is no 1 because of Christianity??? Far from it… It is no 1 because:
1. Tolerant society…accepts just about any “talented” human being from any country! because of their talent..not their religion or race for that matter!
2. Religious freedom exists!
3. It is also because….there is no “US race”:)…The US is full of Europeans, Chinese, Indians, Africans etc etc…A great example of the human spirit of tolerance and understanding, something which you seem to be lacking!
and lots more reasons…….
The Christian faith however will bare the good fruit of generosity. Christians appreciate the blessings in which we are endowed upon by our belief, therefore we take it as our responsibility to share it with others.
April 1 is still far away:). Generosity! Would your Chrisitian missionaries/preachers preach about “god” without any monetary benefits?
Islam and Hinduism are both pagan religions
Ah yes! So why don’t you throw away the cross (a pagan symbol), the immaculate conception story, the resurrection story etc etc….While you’re at it, why not throw out that “beautiful Jesus” statue on the cross which is present in most churches…After that, perhaps you can pinpoint at other religions and call them pagans, heathens, barbarians or whatever!
January 5th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
“Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mayans and Incas, Paganism and Atheism are one and the same. These are false and pagan religions that existed even before the birth of Judeo-Christian belief. None of these false religions even until today have overcome the Judeo-Christian belief for a reason and that is because there is something missing in them, all of them.”
With the exception of Islam, yes, something was missing in them, namely religious/nonreligious army to propagate their faiths/lack of faith. LOL…
“All of these false religions do not give us the humility to see human beings as a fallen beings in which help is impossible to achieve from ourselves.”
This like Muslims claiming only their religio is right is because quran says so…hehehe
“Brahma is everywhere and everything, even in the hearts of those who want to behead me, ………….Oh crap, the freakin’ Christian missionaries converted them to Christianity, who’s gonna clean our toilets now? I hate these Christian missionaries messing up our way of life.”
hahahhahhahahahha…that was freaking funny….really….but quite untrue….LOL….
“Like I said before, India has been plagued with poverty and corruption, …..The Christian faith however will bare the good fruit of generosity. …. Why do you think the USA is the number one contributors of charities in the whole world and not India? It is because the majority of the US religion is Christianity.”
Yes yes…..we have seen how the freaking charity works as I have quoted already….The reason is simple, Christian bigots are only too eager to convert every damn fellow in the world as themselves, that is why so much “charity” around the world….when in their own backyard, black Americans are homeless and subject to racism from jobs to even schools etc. Blacks lve as segregated community all over America. Take a look at Houston, Chicago or even small University towns like Urbana-Champaign, Collegestation/Bryan etc. Blacks live ina separate locality while whites in rich suburbans. Your churches are segregated and black churches and schools are always substandar…but yes white Christians always spend money of heathens while ignoring the starving, homeless , segregated black Christians in their own land. Take a look at New Orleans and hurricane and corruption there. Investing in poor Christians is just a waste of time…they are already Christians…can you convert them again ?
“My advice to Hindus are to leave this false belief and be brave and face the truth. Islam and Hinduism are both pagan religions. …..If Christians don’t care we wouldn’t be converting your so called “untouchables” into Christians. We would have just left them as it is, cursed Hindus destined to clean your sewer pipes for life until their sins are forgiven according to your Brahma foolishness.”
Yes..yes…..We poor pagan Hindus have realized suddenly that Christians love us so much that they even care for our salvation…….I feel like crying now……..I know Christians care so much about Hindu untouchables until they convert to Christianity, just like black Christian Americans who no longer exist in white Christian evangelists’ view. Now these black untouchables are cleaning your sewers in America as janitors, garbage collectors etc. …
Yes…yes….Hindu untouchables and Hindus in general are so convinced that Christians care so much for Hindus and even the saalvation of pagan Hindu souls….what angels Christians are…….wow….
January 6th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Faithfreedom67 is such an ignorant Christian that he forgets how Dec 25 was adopted by Christians as the b’day of Jesus. Dec 25 was the festival day of Mitras. The cross doesn’t belong to Christianity. Even the fables in the bible can be seen in Dead Sea Scrolls, which predate Xnity at least by 4 centuries. Christians are the biggest copy-cats. So Faithfreedom 67, say thanks to paganism for borrowing all mumbo-jumbo.
Another point is that science and technology is not due to Judeo-Christian culture. In fact the Judeo-Christian culture took Europe into Dark ages. If Europe was prospering under Christian rule, why was the State separated from religion (aka Christianity)? Do you remember how Galeleo, Survetius, and other scholars were killed by the Bible-licking Popes, Bishops, and other Church clergy? Read the Old Testament; it is full of unscientific and stupid things.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:00 am
Excellent article.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:01 am
To Freedomfighter67: Why Americans are so much behind curries then? Go to any city of America; you will find them running after curries. Indian restaurants are full of Americans. Why is that Bible-poodle? Do you know curry has become the national dish of UK? You guys fry dead animals and call it BBQ. Thanks to Hindus, people around the world are eating tasty meals with masalas in it. Who knows you might be eating curries secretly ! LOL… Your style of writing is pretty similar to biblical verses.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:04 am
So Freedomfighter67, you didn’t tell why Christians borrowed Dec 25 as the b’day of baby Jesus! You didn’t tell why they copied cross from another religion? I am sure you must be enjoying curries, saying thanks to Hindus. BTW, Indian christians and Muslims cannot live without curries. When will you come to India and educate them to eat pizzas, pastas, and BBQ? Have you booked ur ticket yet?
January 6th, 2009 at 4:04 am
“Truth hurts huh, Hindus. LOL, I got you now. I have just proven the foolishness of Hindus here.”
Yes…yes….it hurt real bad…..
“I just got swarmed by curry smelling Hindus. By the way hindus, with all due respect, why do you guys smells so funny all the time, I mean not in a good way. Is your smell part of your religion?”
May be if you pull your nose out of jc’s ass and wash your nose then you will not smell all that curry….
“Ask any american how the Hindus smell and they’ll tell you they have a real weird smell.”
Right….. Last time I had an Indian Christian and American Christian roommate they were stinking like garbage and turned my kitchen floor black cooking all that pork and every dead animal meat… and that was my last Christian roommate ever…LOL….
“Maybe you guys need to leave your religion Hinduism and learn how to take a shower like Jews and Christians do.”
Historically stinking Europeans learned from Hindus that it was good idea to take bath once per day at the least. Christians stink up the whole alley when they walk by…LOL…
“Join the rest of the civilized world. Don’t be like the Muslims. By the way, I think you guys got that tradition form religiously taking a bath in a sewer which Hindus called sacred river in India.LOL.”
Right…. and Europeans/Christians in general got the tradition of NEVER taking bath for months together….yuck……there is one guy who stinks up the corridor in my University.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:27 am
So you want to speak about cleanliness. Let me give you some history lessons.
When the first Europeans arrived in India, the Moguls refused to speak with them because to the bathing perfuming Moguls they smelt too disgusting.
Both India and China had cleanliness traditions that stretched back 1000s of years old.
Europeans used to bathe once a year and they were stinking like refuse. They leaned from Indians that it is a good idea to take bath once or twice a day. As for smelling curries, I know Indians are a lot more clean than Americans who sometimes stink up the whole room.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:38 am
“Truth hurts huh, Hindus. LOL, I got you now.”
You really think so..LOL….
“I have just proven the foolishness of Hindus here. I just got swarmed by curry smelling Hindus. By the way hindus, with all due respect, why do you guys smells so funny all the time, I mean not in a good way. Is your smell part of your religion?”
May be you should pull your nose out of jc’s ass and wash it with soap and then you may not smell all that curry which jc ate in one of the best Indian restaurants..LOL….
I wonder why Americans and Europeans go in droves to Indian restaurants then ? Some of the Americans (Christians) I know of stink like refuse… Is that part of Christian religion ?
and please tell me why European Christians used to take bath once a year ? They must be smelling like animals or worse… No wonder Moghuls even refused to speak to them Christians….LOL….
“Ask any american how the Hindus smell and they’ll tell you they have a real weird smell. Maybe you guys need to leave your religion Hinduism and learn how to take a shower like Jews and Christians do.”
I know many Americans and none of them have told anything like that. Infact I know Europeans who take bath even these days only once a fortnight and stink like you know what…..I do not tell them.
By the way history shows that you Christians learned from Eastern countries how to be clean….LOL…
“Join the rest of the civilized world. Don’t be like the Muslims. By the way, I think you guys got that tradition form religiously taking a bath in a sewer which Hindus called sacred river in India.LOL.”
Ganga is clean water from the mountains. It is polluted in some places in major cities, but in many places it has very clean water.
You are emotionally hurt….I can understand it is painful for you when people expose Christian bigotry and racism…
January 6th, 2009 at 5:59 am
There is a serious problem with those who memorise and are mesmerised by the evil twain B & Q. they rapidly lose their brain cells what ever little they had in the beginning and then mouth inanities as gospels!
It is a different matter that the dead jew on the stick did the same and these fellas are copying the same.
99% of westerns are not true christians.They are name sake christians. How do I know? There no infidel women who are being stoned to death, but I am aware that 99.9% of the western women are not fidel! Its not my assumption and its a figure released by the western government for different purposes.There are far too many nuns who suffer from carcinoma of cervix.Did you now that the carcinoma of the cervix is related to surprise surprise, sex! More number parterners, more diverse the partners and earlier the activity, the greater the chances of carcinoma of cervix and there are plenty of NUNs who have this disease. Hmm I think lord has shown them the way to sin with out conceiving.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Man, huntington, was right. There is a serious clash between civilizations. I think his view has been vindicated. We have an army of Hindus and Christians ready to kill each other, while the Muslims wait for the right time to pounce on both of them.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:28 am
Toshiro, you’re right! The muzlim apologists on this site are very successful in making sure that we not talk about izlam. Izlam is mixed with any or all other religions (good, bad, or indifferent) and izlam is given cover.
See how well their izlamic deception works… izlam gets a pass as we all fall for their taqiyya. Not only do we mostly allow them to get away with it, the owners of this site allow them to. They hijack and enslave FFI just as izlam has always hijacked and enslaved anything they could find.
So yeah, people like continuum are muzlims practicing their deceptive ‘religion’ on this site. And they will, mostly, get away with it.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:46 am
here enjoy some of the absurdities and inanities of the God!
GE 8:21 The odor of Noah’s sacrifices was pleasing to the Lord. I can understand if its curried and Barbeques chicken, but just live animal sacrificed and God likes the smell.HMmm no wonder one has to be really stupid to believe B &Q the eviltwain!
GE 9:12-16 God first creates the rainbow. (Note: Apparently the laws having to do with refraction of light were null and void prior to this time.) He haw. Children can you tell me how the rain bow is created? Hmm BY god? Good well done. Now I can see how intelligent are these evil twain readers.
NU 22:21-30 A donkey sees an angel, recognizes it as such, and then speaks in human language (presumably Hebrew) to his master. I am glad the christians in the west do not understand the donkeys!
GE 18:1, 7-8 God eats solid food with Abraham
EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as about 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of more than 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt at a time when the whole population of Egypt was less than 2,000,000.
EX 17:14 God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek.
DT 25:19 “… you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget.”
(That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible.)
So on and on the absurdities of the evil B & Q continue. Just google it. Type absurdities of quran and bible!
Muhammad said that camel’s urine should be drank as medicine for those who are feeling sick (Bukhari 1:234). He sometimes spat on his clothes (1:242). He let people catch his own spit and then rub it on their faces and skin (3:891). To someone else, he ejected a mouthful of water on them (1:188). After washing himself, Muhammad would give his dirty water to his followers to drink and smear themselves with (1:187-188).
Now let us all introspect.Which is more absurd.Bible or qran!
January 6th, 2009 at 9:08 am
proudkafir,
GE 8:21 The odor of Noah’s sacrifices was pleasing to the Lord. Tell me what is absurd with this verse?
GE 9:12-16 God first creates the rainbow. A writer of this story was not a scientist to understand the details of formation of rainbow. He wrote what he perceived. Whether this verse is absurd or not it does not dictate the message of the bible. The message of the bible is fully understood only when you read the entire bible.
NU 22:21-30 A donkey talking. Mmh! Yea, this is really exciting. This is what makes the bible funny as you read it. Whether absurd or not is out of question we do not base our doctrines through this verse. However,if God is real,is this impossible?
GE 18:1, 7-8 God eats solid food with Abraham. Apart from this Abraham had some other amazing and special encounter with God such as “Yahweh told Abraham, Go and sacrifice your Son, Isaac……
EX 17:14 God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek.
DT 25:19 “… you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget.” (That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible.)
That’s how you have chosen to understand this verse.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Now proudkafir I wish to know some facts from you. Please in brief can you share with me your life philosophy? Are you a Hindu? What do you think of Jesus Christ: a myth? a mere historical figure who died as any other man can be? or truly was resurrected as his diciples claimed? Now if you consider him to be a dead jew, were his disciples liers? I am urgent to receive your response, as I think we need to discuss these issues quite objectively.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:47 am
“So yeah, people like continuum are muzlims practicing their deceptive ‘religion’ on this site. And they will, mostly, get away with it.”
That is really funny…LOL….You can ask Ibrahim Lone (one of the authors in FFI and islam-watch) about who I am…..He can vouch that I am NOT a pedofile prophet following mooslim…. Muhammad is a child raping, daughter-in-law molesting, lascivious, lying, thieving, looting, genocidal, psychopathic, insane, war lord pissphet and allah is pimp god who provides brothels for pisslamic terrorists…. I hope this satisfies your curiosity and confirms that I am NO mooooslim… Please do not insult me again by calling me mooooslim this way.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:54 am
“or truly was resurrected as his diciples claimed? Now if you consider him to be a dead jew, were his disciples liers? I am urgent to receive your response, as I think we need to discuss these issues quite objectively.”
I am sorry to reply here, but do you consider the possibility that bible was written decades after alleged resurrection of Christ ?
You see, I have no problem with Christians as long as they do not go around demonizing other religions and taking advantage of poverty and social issues only to instill hatred for other cultures with the teachings like “you pagans people worship demons” and like statements.
Why can’t you Christians behave responsibly and properly ? Why can’t you Christians respect other religions ? That is all eastern religious followers ask for, which is NOT too much to ask for.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Tuvong the superman’s super intelligent arguments
“Ooooh yeah I know the answer because your god is a cows right..LOL!!!!”
“Oooop I know why..your god is a cows right??..LOL!!”
“I know why you don’t believed in miracles..Ooop!! your god is a cows right..LOL!!!”
“Ooop!!! I know why..your god is a cows or is it elephants this time..LOL!!!!”
“Did your god the cows give you that number?? LOL!!!!”
“I strongly believed it must be the cows…..LOL!!!”
Now Christians have started blaming cows and elephants for everything wrong in their bible….LOL…..
January 6th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Ahh the power of internet! I can be A mossie, a Buddhist, Christian or animist or even a sodi barbarian.
What my views are about christ/mohammad/ram/allah/Buddha/ xyz are neither relevant or pertinent to the remaining readers of the message board.
Objectively looking all I feel is qrandic verses are a corrupted copy of the bible and bible is in itself a copy of Torah and Hindu fairy tales.There is no divinity in any of the teachings of the later editions.The latest entrant qrand has as much spirituality, as used toilet tissue has of coco channell.
what ever my feelings are about the dead jew on a stick, it does not take away the christ’s importance to many people! I have no illusion.Want to believe in the nailed fellow, feel free.Dont kill and maim others for their unbelief, that has come from objectivity and rationalisation.
I am a rational human being and so you will be if you stop listening to the dead jew.There is nothing to be proud about being a christian .Bible has to be read with an open mind and the absurdities there in will not make you proud!
January 6th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I totally disagree with the cleanliness aspect of Hindus pointed out by “freedomfighter67″. You are absolutely consumed by Hindu hatred. Please don’t forget that ayurveda came from the “Hindus” and which the west is crazy about now.
Ayurveda sees bathing as a therapeutic activity. The morning bath is therefore an important part of the ayurvedic dincharya or daily routine. Bathing has always been accorded the status of a sacred activity in Indian life. During their explorations of ancient India’s Indus Valley Civilization in Mohenjo Daro, archaeologists unearthed a large pool-like structure with steps leading down at both ends. This is believed to have been a public bath. In addition, homes in this surprisingly advanced civilization had their own private baths and an elaborate drainage system.
Ancient ayurvedic texts speak of therapeutic baths featuring rose petals, milk, honey, and turmeric. Preceded by a luxurious full-body warm oil massage and followed by the application of rich sandalwood paste and floral waters on the skin, the ayurvedic bath was designed to restore balance to mind, body and spirit.
Ayurvedic texts report many benefits from the healing bath:
It enhances physical energy levels and improves mental clarity.
It helps remove sweat, dirt and environmental toxins from the skin.
It helps relax the mind and balance the emotions.
When there is so much and more being said about a simple thing of daily routine such as a bath, one can imagine the treasure of knowledge that the ancient texts of “Hindu” origin contain. I think freedomfighter67 should do some research before saying such absurd things about Hindus. In my part of India, nobody even likes to look at the face of a person who has not bathed in the morning. What this freedomfighter is saying is totally absurd!!
As for poverty, are not the Moghuls and the British, who looted and raped India of all its natural treasures and its gold responsible for it? It is a wide known fact that the Moghuls and British have amassed tons and tons of precious stones and gold and natural resources from India. Still, the spirit of Hindus has not become “poor”. Hindus are hard working and so they are flourishing still in whichever part of the world they are.
Freedomfighter’s extreme intolerance to anything Hindu is also evident in what he says about curries. Food and taste buds are matters of personal choice and also the environment that one lives in. There are a lot of inadequacies in western dishes that are not only not appealing to the taste buds but also detrimental to the health as well. It is said that food one eats affects one’s thought processes. Freedomfighter, your thoughts really stink!! My Indian curry does not produce the kind of language and thought process that you possess.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:18 am
I have earlier also written repeatedly using foul biblical or qrandic words is not an alternative for erudite arguement! But then you are true followers of the dead jew on the stick and the pedophile.So Do I expect any thing better?? I think not.
When you sacrifice an animal or Human to satisfy the blood thirsty god of yours, the stench that emnates can not be pleasing! Cow dung is any day better .Ohh The joy of cow dung.Apply to your head and some brain cells may grow.
The irrational bible gave that number.Not the elephant or cow god! All creatures great and small are all creations of the super god and certainly not the biblical violent vomitus of god or the excrement allah
The idea of this site is not to spread hatred, but to rationalise the unbelief!
Mouthing biblical absurdities will not make me look unintelligent, but will certainly expose the negative IQ of the bible and qrandic believers.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:23 am
The message of the bible is fully understood only when you read the entire bible.
Ahh I thought the bible like the qrand is clear! Why do you assume that I have not read both?
At least you do notice the funny qualities of Bible like a talking donkey. I have seen many computer using donkeys on this site!
Bible is just like qrand funny,absurd, stupid,violent,malicious,atrocious, boring, repetative and soporific, filled with hatred,prejuidice,selfishness and all human emotions.What they do not have is spirituality.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Rajani you said “You are absolutely consumed by Hindu hatred”
Shall we say Lord forgive him for he knows not what he is doing!
January 6th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Islam, Christianity and any religion that supports killings or regard anyone that does not follow it’s teaching as a the outcast is a BIG LIE, and a serious DECEPTION POINT, we have been quoting killing verses from the old testament and several ethical, historical and blatant lies from both the old and the new testaments, all we ever get is the same tired ass ad hominems and apologetics gibberish from the wishful thinkers, nothing congruous with reality permeates the brain of these fundies, they just love to believe in their fables, scared silly of rational thinking or looking for objective evidences, instead of saying I don’t to what they aren’t sure of, they chose to have blind faith even if it is demonstratably wrong, how pathetic is that, and don’t think am a muslim because I bash xtianity, truth hurts and the reality that the muslims are licenced to kill infidels hurts too.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Ahh how convenient.
The christian world is controlling the economy, the scientific knowledge etc.
These scientists and economists are not in the true sense jews and christians.Please do not drag them in and ask them to support your asinine biblical or qrandic gods.
Get me one Nobel prize winner jew to accept this statement from torah” when you take a woman from behind, the child born will be squint eyed!” as the whole truth and nothing but truth, I shall accept your statement that these truth seekers are jews and christians!
Get me one christian nobel prize winner to say that the earth is only 6000 years old and is flat and the sun is going round the arth, I shall accept my defeat.Please do not insult them calling them as christians and jews.They are neither and they are truth seekers and the thing I am sure about is that B & Q are not true at all.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
“Please do not insult me again by calling me mooooslim this way.”
Then stop giving izlam cover. And stop being a useful idiot for izlam.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
RIGHT ON proudkafir, keep it coming.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
To proudkafir: No I won’t say “forgive him”. I would say “Please put some sense in him so that he sees and understands what is right and what is wrong (Vivekbuddhi)” and also “To give me enough intelligence and courage to say and defend what is right.”
January 6th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Continuum,
You do not have to feel sorry to reply here, but how do you consider the possibility that bible was written decades after alleged resurrection of Christ? The new testament was written describing each and every event that occured in the timeframe begininng with the birth of jesus to the start of his ministry, his death and resurrection ultimately commencing with the advent of ministry of jesus disciples. The details were described with such veracity by mentioning historical people, governments, etc. Consider this verse of the beginning of the book of Acts: “In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen”…. This is Luke mentioning the name of one important historical figure who coould have been traced in history though archeology! Infact the bible is full of the verses of this nature: It happened during the reign of ceaser Tiberius…., During this time Agripa was the Chief Priest, The order came from Ceaser to expel Jews from Rome…You know actual people, actual events, actual places that could be historically traced!
So give us your convincing argument to deny the resurrection.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Where is Notorious Prophet? In his absence here for quite some time Tuvong, Proudchristianet et al have become bold enough to write any nonsense without the fear of being chastised….by NP.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I have a medical background and I have worked and am working in moslem and christian places. I have a simple question to both the fundies here.
See the basic essence fo life in every live organism, let us stick to humans here, is the glucose metabolism.Glucose is metabolised in the same way in all of us.Jews, christians, hindus,moslems, atheists,anarchists, etc.If God wanted us to be different, he/she would have created different ways of glucose metabolism. That would have proved that we are all different and so we are right in praying to different gods. Don’t tell me that it was the christians who discovered glucose metabolism and so Christianity and biblical god is correct! That’s the most asinine comment. we are all seekers of truth the whole truth and nothing but truth. This absolute truth is approached in different ways. Our life time or a man’s life time is insufficient to understand the greater truth.Nevertheless we need to seek.Seek the truth and you shall find.Truth is inside you as well! This is not my own philosophy.This was thought off thousands of years ago before the dead jew on the stick spelt it out.
If only God knew this ( biblical God or the allah) he would have created a different way of metabolism of glucose and would have made all the believers superior and the rest inferior. But GOD did not.So he decided to make all the humans have the same glucose metabolism. In other words, try not to seek god through religion and scriptures. As mentioned earlier, its like trying to understand probability theory reading play boy! God does not need any book and that too stupid books like qrand and bible.God is far too intelligent.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
…. instead of saying I don’t to what they aren’t sure of, they chose to have blind faith even if it is demonstratably wrong……
I am sure Jesus existed, died and resurrected. I do not believe in this blindly, there are a lot of historical evidence. Now Busted Divinity demonstrate to me that my belief is wrong.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
It’s incredible to see these covert Moslems and islamised Hindus come here and attack Christianity on a site that was set up in order to expose islam: the very victims of islam are offering us the sorriest sight of all, the sight of what cowardice does to men as they grovel in the dirt.
The Christians of India are an insignificant minority, but it’s evident it must be better to attack a tiny minority than to have to deal with hordes of Moslems and their berserk mujahiddin. The idiocies about priests and nuns intent on extorting confessions have been exposed, because converting to Roman Catholicism is far from being as easy as it is to turn Moslems in roughly 30 seconds: it takes years to become a papist.
Consider this: dispite the Brits ruled over India, Anglicans are surprisingly few there. Isn’t it sursprising there were no forced mass conversions of the natives to a sect of Christianity headed by the British monarch himself/herself? They could have been turned into both political and religious subjects: why didn’t the Brits think of that? Could it be because Church and State are separate entities in the West while Moslems and Hindus are incapable of conceiving a secular society where basic liberties are respected? All you have to do is watch a couple of Indian movies where the Hindus ally with the Moslems against the Christian Western oppressor and you’ll get an idea of how hopelessly brain-washed many Indians are: forging the story of a past that never was in order to disregard the plights of the present more easily… That’s India. Make a couple of Indian friends and verify it all yourselves if you don’t believe my words.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
The problems in Nagaland (where the Christians are more than 3 quarters of the population and are almost all Protestant Baptists) stem from the fact that those are tribal areas inhabited by people who have no place in the Hindu caste-system, so they couldn’t or wouldn’t want to be Hindus in the first place. Nagaland is the only region of India where English is the official language, because there are lots of different tribes speaking different languages spreading over a very small area. Tribal conflicts there are inevitable and they don’t have to depend on religion to break out.
The idea that Hindus are a bunch of peaceful, harmless simpletons is ludicrous: they can be very violent and attack even unprovoked. They attack both Christians and Buddhists, whether they are converts from Hinduism or not, but they will never attack any convert to islam first, because that would mean huge problems. They know Christians and Buddhists will not start a jihad, so slurring them is piece of pie. I’m not saying all Hindus are like that, but this attitude is commoner than anybody could imagine.
Tribal is an ethnic and social label in India: Indians know all too well that the people from tribal areas are different and, as a consequence, are treated differently: they’re granted some provileges in education, exactly as the low-caste are. There IS a big social problem here with an history which is at least as old as Hinduism itself. To say that Christianity is the problem is the evidence of cowardice and bad faith, because this problem has been there since before Jesus Christ was born (or invented, if you prefer). The low castes, the untouchables and their grim fate may somehow fit into a certain vision of Hindu society, but the tribal people have no place in it, because they’re ethnically and culturally different.
That’s the dark side of Hindu wisdom, if you really want to call it wisdom: a society built for an oligarchy. If you’re non-Hindus, ask a Hindu what your place would be if you decided to become Hindus. The answer is: none in a Hindu society. Which means you’d be outcastes. Who would want to be an outcaste in a caste-system?
January 6th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I fail to fathom how exposing the absurdities of both B & Q can be considered as irrational ! If you expose qrandic verses as unbelievably stupid, then the original IE Bible must be equally absurd.How can Bible escape the scrunity?
Qran is the excrement of bible. A corrupted one.
Exposing Biblical absurdities does not necessarily mean that qrandic verses are being supported.
India has a population of 1 billion and making a few friends and then judging the billion odd people, based on that, speaks volumes about the lack of volume in the cranial cavity.Thats because the cells usually disappear after parroting the inanities of bible and banging the head on the floor 5 times a day!
January 6th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
The fear of islam is not the only problem. Ignorance plays a decisive role, too: so many peace-loving Hindus will tell you all religions teach love for humanity. By all religions they mean also islam. Trust me: they will tell you that and you’ll have a hard time trying to explain to them islam is an exception. Many Hindus will defend islam, telling you the terrorists have been trying to hijack it. That’s typical Hindu naïveté: seeing is believing.
The exposure of Hinduism to islam has been so long and thorough that most Hindus consider islam just as part of their Indian culture as a minaret is part of the local landscape. They don’t consider Christianity has been present in India for a longer time. And that the Moslems finished the job the very Hindus had begun purging the land from Buddhists. Hindus can be too sensitive to truth, so these notions are better left untaught, also because their Moslem brothers may not like to have the truth leak out. The myth that India was a paradise before it was colonised has to live on irrespective of the truth so the Hindus may be nostalgic for a deceitful mirage of a golden age which has never existed: it keeps them from realising they’re slumbering on a bed of snakes.
The Hindu caste-system is the biggest problem with Hinduism and that is what explains the conversions of low-caste people to other religions. It’s hard to have to admit there are people running from Hinduism, but it’s a fact: would any of you wish to live as untouchables all your lives and buy it that you have to live that way for sins committed in previous lives? Come on… It takes someone to wield his sword against you and to keep you down drowning in your ignorance in order to bring you to believe that nonsense. And that much for peaceful and enlightening Hinduism!
Conversions from Hinduism happened when Buddhism flourished, then again when Christianity spread in the South-West of India. Then again with islam (both Sunni and Shi’a and then other converts were won over to syncretic Sikhism), with the difference that islam was and still is a belligerant cult and India is still suffering from it. India was torn apart because of islam, not because of Christianity or Buddhism or any other faith. India was torn apart by Indians turned Moslems who were convinced they were no longer Indians: it was a fratricide and that’s what it still is when jihadists sneak in from Pakistan to wreak havoc in the country of, perhaps, their very grandparents, who may as well as have been Hindus.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Aha Proudkafir your latest post was by far the most intelligent of yours. Especially the line “we are all seekers of truth the whole truth and nothing but truth”. So now you are interested in the truth. But you add “try not to seek god through religion and scriptures”. This too is an intelligent line.
In short as I have understood you doubt if God is fare in revealing the truth in the bible only, which pose a question what about those hindus or ancient africans (btw I am an African), chinese who were far from knowing a Jewish God, if it is true that the he is the only true God? So what about those who die or died without knowing this jewish God?
As far as I understand and as the bible reveals, it says in chapter 17 of the book of Acts, just urge you to read the entire chapter. “Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
So the jewish scriptures are very important to understand the truth. God chose to reveal himself this way, through jewish people, and this is simply God’s wisdom only. I do not understand his psychology.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
About resurrection
As a nonbeliever, I dont have to view the resurrection story as a literal truth, since no evidence of the christian god is available, the whole thing comes down to circular reasoning, BELIEVE IN GOD, question: WHAT GOD? answer THE BIBLICAL JESUS, question WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT A GOD BY THE NAME OF J INFLUENCES THE WORLD? answer IT SAID SO IN THE BIBLE, get it?
The reason why the story is called the eye witnesses’ accounts is becase of the verse: Luke 1:2 but then consider these:
The said resurrection appearances happened only to Jesus’s followers, nobody among the opposing groups saw it. If god actually wanted to show the world this miracle so that his son should be believed as suggested in Mt 12:38-40, or the christian fact that there is life after death as St. Paul wrote in 1Co 15:12-19, then the event was very badly staged. More people should have witnessed the crucifixion and certified that Jesus was really dead. [13] And certainly many more people than just a handful of his followers should have witnessed his return from the dead.
I quote: Theodore
“The Biblical accounts of the resurrection are not consistent and that tends to cast doubt on them. They contradict one another regarding such matters as how many women went to Jesus’s tomb, whether it was still dark out, whether Mary Magdalene told people about the tomb, whether she went back to it with them, whether there was just one angel there or two, whether the angels were inside of the tomb or outside, whether they got there before the women and disciples, and what they looked like, whether there were guards at the tomb, whether Peter went there alone, whether Jesus appeared first to him (1Co 15:3-5), whether he appeared at all to Mary Magdalene, whether he appeared to her at the tomb, whether she was then alone, whether she recognized him immediately, and whether it was after the disciples were told, whether Peter went to the tomb before or after the others were told and whether he was alone, whether Jesus appeared specially to two disciples, whether they recognized him immediately, whether he later appeared to the others as the two were speaking or afterwards, whether he scolded the others for not believing the two, whether he appeared to the disciples just once or three times, whether the first appearance was in Galilee, whether they all recognized him immediately, whether he ascended to heaven right afterwards, whether he ascended from Jerusalem (Mark), Bethany (Luke), or Mt. Olivet (Acts), and whether he appeared to the Twelve, to over 500, and then specially to James (1Co 15:5-7).”
HOW CAN THE INERRANT WORD OF GOD BE THIS SUBJECTIVE?
Are we as rational beings to trust accounts that deal with heaven or hell with these kind of inconsistencies?
January 6th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
“The myth that India was a paradise before it was colonised has to live on irrespective of the truth so the Hindus may be nostalgic for a deceitful mirage of a golden age which has never existed: it keeps them from realising they’re slumbering on a bed of snakes” Spoken truth like a typical biblical follower or should I say B& Q follower!
This shows utter lack of intelligence and complete ignorance about India.One thing for sure, you have never visited India! You probably have heard from some so and so Indians some trash and are commenting. Just do this exercise.What british looted from India.Google it Drain of wealth during british India “Javier Cuenca Esteban estimates these net financial transfers from India to Britain reached a peak of £1,014,000 annually in 1784-1792 before declining to £477,000 in 1808-1815 (Pg 9).” This is a phenomenal sum even by today’s standards.” You can not loot this amount from say Bangladesh?India was the richest country in the world till the advent of Islam. All the great diamonds belonged to India. India knew mining and processing of diamonds. The Mughals had two underground rooms of a capacity of 150,000 cu. ft., each packed with precious metals, diamonds and stones.
Mohd. bin Qasim robbed Sind of 630 million dirhams in the 11th century. Mahmud Ghazni raided India 17 times to loot temples and palaces. The sultanates sent looting expeditions to the south. On the invasion of Ghazni, Nehru writes: “From Thaneswar he took away, it is said, 200,000 captives (for sale) and vast wealth. But it was at Somnath that he got the most, for this was one of the great temples and the offerings of centuries had accumulated there
Does that sound like India was a rich or poor country? Please do not expose your ignorance.Hating Indians and India may not be a great idea, but still ok.But exposing ignorance is neither a great idea nor is acceptable!
January 6th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
BD as regard to your skepticism about a resurrection story I am in a no-win situation. If the resurrection story harmonized perfectly in all gospels, you should have had claimed that the writers of the Gospels conspired together. As the resurrection accounts have some differences you claim that the Gospels contradict each other and therefore cannot be trusted. However, even if the resurrection accounts cannot be perfectly harmonized, that does not make them untrustworthy. By any reasonable evaluation, the resurrection accounts from the four Gospels are superbly consistent eyewitness testimonies. The central truths – that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and that the resurrected Jesus appeared to many people – are clearly taught in each of the four Gospels.
HOW CAN THE INERRANT WORD OF GOD BE THIS SUBJECTIVE?
This subjectivity is what make it inerrant. Different individuals explaining the same event subjectively. Analogous to different biological textbook authors explaining animal respiration. The phenomenon real the details different. The details do not make respiration unreal.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Now BD you forget that the bible is a collection of historical books. It is not like Quran thing which is said to be dictated from allah, written merely for the purpose of religion. The bible was not intended as such. The bible is a collection of Ancient Jewish Constitution, Jewish History, Jewish Kings Autobiographies, Jewish poetry and Songs, etc. The new testament is a collection of Jesus autobiographies written by different people, Church history, Letters of early church leaders, etc. But lo! even though they were quite written for different purposes they speak the same message! A messiah will come, the messiah has come, the messiah will return!
January 6th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
It really is true that both muslims and christians are wishful thinkers, fundies are are the same in tactics, so because we bash both the religions we are now muslims pretending to be something else, well religion to me is what it is A MINDFUCK, get over it, now back to the resurrection myth, the contradictions are numerous, Jesus’ followers should put on their gymnastic suits.
1. How many women went to Jesus’s tomb?
One – John 20:1-18 Three – Mk 16:1-8 Two – Mt 28:1-8 Many – Lu 23:55-24:10.
Was it still dark out? John 20:1 says yes while Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2 are saying no.
Did Mary Magdalene tell any men about the tomb? Mt 28:8; Lu 24:9-10; John 20:2 are saying yes to this while Mk 16:8 thiks the answer is no.
Did she go back to the tomb with any of them? John 20:2-11 says yes while these are saying no, Mt 28:1-10,16; Mk 16:8-14; Lu 24:9-12.
Was there just one angel at Jesus’s tomb? Mt 28:2-5; Mk 16:5-6 says yes, while the negative comes from Lu 24:4-5; John 20:11-13.
Were the angels inside the tomb? Mk 16:5; John 20:11-12 thiks the angel was inside while Mt 28:2 disagrees with this in the inerrant and contradiction free book.
Were there guards at the tomb? Mt 27:62-66, 28:2-4,11-15 is positive here while Mk 15:44-16:10; Lu 23:50-24:12; John 19:38-20:12 are of the opposing opinion.
Did the angel(s) look like lightning? Mt 28:2-4 says yes while Mk 16:5; Lu 24:4 says the angel(s) appeared humanlike.
Did the angel(s) get to the tomb first? Mk 16:5 says yes while Lu 24:2-4; John 20:1-12 brought an alternative.
Did Peter go alone? Lu 24:12 yes while John 20:2-6 says no.
And those are words of the omniscient and omnipotent god who is perfect, knows everything and can do everything except of course giving christians an uncontradictory guidance, one wonders which guide to salvation a particular christian holds, because the salvation ways are as contradicted as virtually the most of the bible contents.
BD(who wonders how a spade could be called a sledge hammer)
January 6th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Yes I know about that proudchristian, so what, if the book is contradictory then which is true and which is false, salvation and resurrection are among the basis of christianity, if one believes he salvation comes from doing this while the other believes salvation can only come from that, then what kind of a confused theology is that, people need to have a coherent guidance, no wonder the church got so many denominations, and a particular denomination thinks the other one got it wrong and wont attain heaven, now do you see the need for an uncontradictory book as a guide? remember we are not dealing with the EPIC OF GILGAMESH here, we are dealing with an all knowing and the one who can do anything at a snap of fingers, still he/it/she did not see it fit to inspire all the biblical writers to conform and write with proper correspondance and affinity.
One wonders why christians still apologise, the Mithraic religion() had almost everything christian before the Jesus’ grand grand grand mother of christ was born,( I dont have to name the similarities, you know them)the Isis cult had the depiction similar to that of mary and baby J, all these are not a clue enough for the fundies, well blind fear is what it is.
January 6th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
“Then stop giving izlam cover. And stop being a useful idiot for izlam.”
How does exposing Christian bigotry amount to being useful idiot ? WHo is providing cover for Islam ?
January 6th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Does that sound like India was a rich or poor country?
India has always been at the mercy of every type of invader. I’m not here to deny that the Brits may have looted it, but the Brits’ lootings are only the best documented, not the worst. And they’re documented, because it was the Brits who did both jobs: the looting and the documenting. And in recent times.
Whoever conquered India treated it as their own possession: that’s what happens to conquered lands. The idea that a land might be conquered for the benefit of its residents is preposterous: only the Moslems can believe such absurdities The difference between the Brits and all other invaders is that the former at a certain moment left the country they had been occupying, while the others did not. And the Brits didn’t even stay for long compared to the Moslems of whatever ethnicity,for instance.
The Indoeuropean tribes that occupied India and whose descendants occupy most of the coutry today were invaders themselves: it was they who brought in Hinduism, which is only a variant of the religion of the ancient Greeks, the Romans and other Indo-European peoples. These Indoeuropeans chased the Dravidans southwards (as testified by the only Dravidans surviving in Pakistan, the Brahouis), but these Dravidans (ancestors of the Tamils, Telugus, Kannadigas and others) had moved into India from the Altaic steppes. The linguistic affinities between Dravidic languages on one side and Turkic languages have been proved. Dravidic languages are agglutinative, like Mongolian and Turkish, Indo-European languages are not.
Among the minorities of India there are the Mundas.They speak languages like Santali which are unrelated to either the Dravidic or Indo-European group. They are probably linguistically related to the Khmer languages of Cambodia and, if this is true, they are distantly related to the Malay-Polynesians. If this sounds incredible, just think that the Malay-Polynesians colonised both the Japanese archipelago and Madagascar. So far none of the major ethnic groups of India can be said to be aboriginal. 99,9% of all Indiands descend from non-autochthonous invaders.
The Tibatan tribes in the North belong to the Sinitic group (Sinitic is a technical term for Chinese-like), more precisely to the Tibeto-Burmese sub-group. They probably happen to be in India because of the way state borders are drawn on maps.
The only people who might (I say might) be autochthonous in the Indian sub-continent are the Burushashkis, who speak a language which has nothing in common with any other language on earth (excepting lexical borrowings, the rest is a puzzle). But they count so little few people know they even exist and, unluckily for them, they live in Pakistan, which means their identity will be effaced in the turn of two or three generations (they number only a few tens of thousands).
I don’t know if India used to be the richest country on earth: diamonds are not the standard by which to judge the richness of the country. The equation according to which if diamonds are expensive then India is/was rich is ridiculous: unless someone wants precious stones, they’re just worthless crystals and minerals. Lots of countries are potentially rich, but the population in them is starving and the wealthy are very few. There are lots of things that make a country rich and important and if India is what it is, then it lacks many if not all of them. I was thinking, Switzerland is rich, but is it because of its cheese, chocolate and watches? And the Swiss have colonised no country. Well, well, well…
However, what do you mean by country when you speak of the past of India? A unified India? That’s fiction: the land may have been potentially rich then, but a unified country did not exist until somebody conquered it and unified it in order to rule over it. As a matter of fact any people was free to enter it and conquer and, curiously, as I have already said, only the Brits left: apparently, they weren’t interested in spoiling and devastating the temples, enslaving the men and raping the women or converting the people to Anglicanism by the sword. They just went away and never returned and you got your India back.
Unfortunately, the original inhabitants of India are not there any longer to tell us the true story about India and the type of primary-school nationalism you’ve displayed makes me smile with compassion for you and your people.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
“……You know actual people, actual events, actual places that could be historically traced!”
1. Paul’s letters are the earliest to my knowledge and there is NO evidence that even paul was a direct witness to Christ.
2. The oldest Gospel is written in 70 AD, decades after alleged resurrection.
3. The fact that there are conflicting accounts of resurrection scenes in gospels, shows that these gospels were based on rumors.
[red]So give us your convincing argument to deny the resurrection.[/red]
I have NOT seen convincing evidence for the resurrection.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
How does exposing Christian bigotry amount to being useful idiot ? WHo is providing cover for Islam ?
continuum, through your cowardice and ignorance you are.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
“The Indoeuropean tribes that occupied India and whose descendants occupy most of the coutry today were invaders themselves: it was they who brought in Hinduism,”
There is NO evidence for this theory called Aryan Invasion Theory. It is suggested purely based on linguistics.
“which is only a variant of the religion of the ancient Greeks, the Romans and other Indo-European peoples.”
Nonsense… Christianityis based on numerous so called pagan resurrection stories.
“These Indoeuropeans chased the Dravidans southwards (as testified by the only Dravidans surviving in Pakistan, the Brahouis), but these Dravidans (ancestors of the Tamils, Telugus, Kannadigas and others) had moved into India from the Altaic steppes. The linguistic affinities between Dravidic languages on one side and Turkic languages have been proved. Dravidic languages are agglutinative, like Mongolian and Turkish, Indo-European languages are not.”
Good…so what…..All you have is linguistics and there is NO archaeological evidence for this so called “Indoeuropeans” having existed anywhere. All of this speculation is based on pure linguistics. There was never found any trace of “Indoeuropeans” having travelled through central Asia.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
“I don’t know if India used to be the richest country on earth: …… There are lots of things that make a country rich and important and if India is what it is, then it lacks many if not all of them. I was thinking, Switzerland is rich, but is it because of its cheese, chocolate and watches? And the Swiss have colonised no country. Well, well, well…”
India had powerful textile and other industries which British had to destroy in order to gain supremacy. India had more educated peolpe than Britain when they arrived in India. India was on the whole more rich than their European counterparts of that time. This is in British records. What was the nedd for Britain to attack a poor country then ? By the way, Europeans did NOT know the value of diamond until they came to India. India had sprawling diamong business with other countries. India was rich in everyway compared to Europe.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
“continuum, through your cowardice and ignorance you are.”
Oh……. So by exposing Christian bigotry and racism one becomes above. I rest my case….. Christians are as intelligent as Moooooslims….LOL
January 6th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
A comprehensive table on resurrection scene showing so many contradictions.
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/crucifix.html
January 6th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
The books are not contradictory, the books are complimentary! One book does not say we saw a resurrected christ and the other say we saw jesus corpse in the tomb.
I personaly see many church denominations as a positive phenomena. Those who consider their group as worth of going to heaven do not understand the scriptures. Scriptures says just believe in Jesus at heart you’re considered righteous in God’s sight. The key concept is how do a person be considered righteous by God. It begins by one considering him/herself unrightious in God’s sight and by reading the bible you straight get it figuredout there: I’ve come to take proclaim the hour of the Lord, repent and be baptized in Jesus name, look at the lamb of God who take away the sin of the world, LOL!
Those who get confused get it confused by themselves! Please do not be one of them.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
“People just don‘t reincarnate into lower caste of human beings or animals. This thought is just absurd. This is nothing but superstition. ”
Yes…yes… but belief in resurrection, dead jew flying from a stick into sky, walking on water, performing miracles, virgin birth, holy ghost impregnating a Jewish/Palestinian woman, etc. are all quite scientific indeed…
“Hindus and Muslims have been relying in their superstitious belief that somehow their religion will give them resurrection…….Stop being enslaved with your superstitious belief. Be free. God loves you more than you’ll ever know that’s why God wants us all to be free.”
?????? You ask Hindus NOT to be superstitious and yet you believe in resurrection, a dead jew will return in a flying white horse, that he turned water into wine, etc….
January 6th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
What you call as “primary-school nationalism” is the love of Dharma and Rashtra for us and that is what makes us united. It was not Brits or the Moghuls who united us. To quote Shri Maanoj Rakhit:
It is often said that Hindus were not united. Well, it has been good and it has been bad, depending on how you want to look at it.
It has been good because Hindus never united in the manner Muslims did, and united they attempted to eliminate nonMuslims from the face of the earth. It has been good because Hindus never united in the manner Christians did, and having been united they worked very hard to convert rest of the humanity into Christianity, and tortured92 those beyond imagination, who would not want to get converted. It has been good because the Hindus did not choke the humanity as the other two did getting ‘united’. It has been bad because ‘not united’ the Hindus fell easy prey to Muslim and Christian endeavours that were not noble ones. It has been bad because ‘even today’ the Hindus are unable to protect themselves against clever manipulations by Christian missionaries, which popular English media in BhaaratVarsh ‘carefully avoids’ exposing. In sum, Hindus were never united in a destructive manner as Muslims and Christians were. It was good because they did not choke the humanity as the other two did. It was bad because they fell easy prey to carnivorous religions that sought to swallow it.
The Hindus were not united in the manner Muslims and Christians have been, probably because Hinduism itself does not attempt to bind people within restrictions, in the sense that it allows numerous paths and individual freedom to follow one’s own chosen path towards seeking God. As Hinduism treated the Journey to the Supreme Soul as every man’s own quest, it never sought to impose itself on other religions. Accomplishment of a preacher was not measured, in Hinduism, by headcount that you had ‘brought new’ on the rolls – it was your knowledge, understanding and direct experience of Ishwar that became the benchmark in Hinduism. For this reason, the Hindus never needed to unite in the manner Muslims and Christians found it necessary. In Hinduism, there were no middlemen who did the brokering between man and God. This very emphasis on individuality finds place in all its thoughts and conducts. This is why the Hindu is not united in the manner Muslims and Christians are.
Pope John Paul II: “Christ is the one mediator between God and man and the Sole Redeemer of humanity” (Frawley 2000)
So the question of “Hindus not being united” is answered here. Hindus fell prey to outside forces because of their largeheartedness. And they still are gullible because of this quality of theirs.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
“The books are not contradictory, the books are complimentary! One book does not say we saw a resurrected christ and the other say we saw jesus corpse in the tomb.”
It may NOT say that, after all one does NOT expect Christians to contradict on this issue.
The contradiction is listed in that Jewish website…If this is based on eye witness how can they have such contradictions.
Contradictions cannot be complimentary.
Who were the women who came to the tomb?
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Mathew 28:1)
Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome (Mark 16:1)
Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna, and other women (Luke 24:10)
Only Mary Magdalene came to the tomb (John 20:1)
Please explain how this CONTRADICTION is complementary ?
January 6th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
continuum is a group of people hiding behind the same nickname. That’s what our Moslem friends used to do. Their aim is to hijack the discussion now that they’ve been left without arguments to defend islam.
Paul’s letters are the earliest to my knowledge and there is NO evidence that even paul was a direct witness to Christ.
I stated that somebody may have written Paul’s letters in his name, because it was common practice to do so: it was a literary genre. But the point that Paul’s letters are the earliest documents is unknown to most people. Evidently this is not the babbling continuum writing. Moreover, in one point two theorieson the history of Christianity were merged. How many people have united behind a nickname in order to defend islam? It’s not just Hindus and Moslems: the group is larger.
There is NO evidence for this theory called Aryan Invasion Theory.
No, there’s not. On a fine day the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans who lived around the Black Sea decided to go on holidays, but since they were unable to come to a common agreement, some moved westwards, some eastwards, some roamed about and some stayed. There was no invasion: it was separate holidays. That’s why Indo-Eropeans historically spread between Iberia and Assam and between Scandinavia and Sri Lanka, not to mention the extinct Tocharians of present-day China. Do you think they teleported themselves there?
Nonsense… Christianityis based on numerous so called pagan resurrection stories.
Maybe. But the Hindu pantheon isn’t that different from that of the Greeks, the Romans and others. This is a fact. Theological conceptions may have evolved differently, but the substance is one and the same. If you are so good you know about Paul’s letters, how come you say such stupid things about the Christian resurrection myth? Is it again another person writing? Or is it just your intellectual dishonesty speaking?
There was never found any trace of “Indoeuropeans” having travelled through central Asia.
They came in from another galaxy. They landed in different places with their spacecrafts. That’s why there are no traces left. I’m not an archaeologist, but I find it quite ridiculous to admit migrations into Europe based on archeological findings (burial sites and rituals as well as related finds) while having to think that in India nobody ever lifted their butts from their stools in order to coax the majority of Indians (who speak Indo-European languages) into thinking that they are autochthonous. If the Dravidans and Altaic peoples are related, what are the Indo-Europeans doing between them?
there is NO archaeological evidence for this so called “Indoeuropeans” having existed anywhere.
Yes, let’s forget about the millions of Germans, Greeks, Italians, Slavs, Hindustanis spread throughout the globe for a moment and the huge lexical stock they have in common… Now I begin to understand why you have to deny the relationship between Hinduism and the ancient Graeco-Roman religion: it’s a piece of evidence against your points.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
“The Christians of India are an insignificant minority, but it’s evident it must be better to attack a tiny minority than to have to deal with hordes of Moslems and their berserk mujahiddin. ”
Lets see how the insignificant minority acts…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8woHykQgB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICWHHOcYPVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5v0IGoa10k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmeE_2SDhSw
In the last link, the person explains in Hindi how Hindus were intimidated to step out of local elections through physical attacks and political support from center(Sonia Gandhi). He also lets people know how crosses were erected around every street corner and streets renamed with christian names. Hindus were also threatened if a christian priest comes to their house and refuses to convert.
In the second link a christian church is shown, which is illegally built in a land legally purchased by a Jain community. The evidence for legal purchase in shown in the third link which shows the legal document.
Christians, like muslims, have been scoundrels all along. When Hindus react not able to take anymore of these atrocities, they are blamed for being communalistic and shouted down with labels such as Hindu fundamentalists, militants etc. in newspapers controlled by these minorities
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmj-_BB6zWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dmwTuhmfEA (This part clearly shows how much xians hate Hindus, Hinduism.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z6meEmZRog
“The problems in Nagaland (where the Christians are more than 3 quarters of the population and are almost all Protestant Baptists) stem from the fact that those are tribal areas inhabited by people who have no place in the Hindu caste-system, …….. Tribal conflicts there are inevitable and they don’t have to depend on religion to break out.”
Yes….. and that is why they would like to impose Christianity on everybody else…..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
Nagaland Rebels
The Nagaland Rebels is a coalition of rebel groups operating in Nagaland, North-East India. The largest of these is the National Socialist Council of Nagaland-Isak-Muivah (NSCN-IM), which is fighting for the establishment of a “Nagaland for Christ”. The NSCN-IM have carried out numerous acts of terrorism against the Indian Army, other ethnic groups, and opponents within their own ethnic group. The insurgency has been waged since the 1947 Indian declaration of independence, and has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths.
Baruah writes that “Christianity is an essential part of Naga identity”; the NSCN-IM estimate that 95% of Nagas are Christian.[40] According to Gordon Means “the religious issue cannot be overlooked… A great number of Nagas are Christians… the Naga Federal Government (NFG) could play upon the fear of many Nagas that within the Indian Union the religious freedom of a small Christian minority would be compromised. An independence movement that can cloak itself in the garb of both nationalism and religious righteousness has an initial advantage. And there can be no doubt that the rebel Nagas are a sincerely pious lot. By all accounts, hymn singing and prayers constitute an important part of their daily routine in their jungle hide-outs. The vice-president of the NFG, Mr. Mhiasiu, was a preacher before joining the underground. Serving as chaplains for the Home Guards are many Baptist ministers.
It is clear that Christians want to establish Christian state just like Islamic terrorists. Both have same goals.
“The idea that Hindus are a bunch of peaceful, harmless simpletons is ludicrous: they can be very violent and attack even unprovoked.”
Right…. That is why Hindus tolerantly accepted Syrian Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians as refugeees in their own countries for last 2000 years.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
“continuum is a group of people hiding behind the same nickname. That’s what our Moslem friends used to do. Their aim is to hijack the discussion now that they’ve been left without arguments to defend islam.”
Whatever suits you Christian….LOL…
“I stated that somebody may have written Paul’s letters in his name, because it was common practice to do so: it was a literary genre. But the point that Paul’s letters are the earliest documents is unknown to most people. Evidently this is not the babbling continuum writing.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Date_of_composition
According to tradition, the earliest of the books were the letters of Paul,
“No, there’s not. On a fine day the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans who lived around the Black Sea decided to go on holidays, …..Do you think they teleported themselves there?”
May they jumped out of your imagination…
“Maybe. But the Hindu pantheon isn’t that different from that of the Greeks, the Romans and others. This is a fact.”
Anybody who has studied Hinduism properly cannot make such ludicrous statements.
“Theological conceptions may have evolved differently, but the substance is one and the same.”
The oldest document in Hinduism itself refutes such a claim. Even Western indologists did NOT make such stupid claims.
“If you are so good you know about Paul’s letters, how come you say such stupid things about the Christian resurrection myth? Is it again another person writing? Or is it just your intellectual dishonesty speaking?”
Paul was hallucinating things, people hallucinate…
“They came in from another galaxy. They landed in different places with their spacecrafts. That’s why there are no traces left. I’m not an archaeologist, but I find it quite ridiculous to admit migrations into Europe based on archeological findings (burial sites and rituals as well as related finds) ……. into thinking that they are autochthonous. If the Dravidans and Altaic peoples are related, what are the Indo-Europeans doing between them?”
You make a logical fallacy of assuming that Indo-Europeans existed and then conclude the same. Your argument on the reason of lack of evidence is quite weak. The theory says that these so called “Indo-European Aryans” travelled with horses, chariots etc. to conquer the Dravidians. Such a large scale movement should leave traces of movement all through Central Asia. during that time period. However there is NO shred of evidence that this took place. The whole theory originate from racist European mindset.
“Yes, let’s forget about the millions of Germans, Greeks, Italians, Slavs, Hindustanis spread throughout the globe for a moment and the huge lexical stock they have in common… Now I begin to understand why you have to deny the relationship between Hinduism and the ancient Graeco-Roman religion: it’s a piece of evidence against your points.”
Yes…. Yes…. All you have is linguistics…. It could have been simple lingusitic influence with cross-culture contacts…. but somehow to racist European whites and Christians and Muslims, it must have been some invasion. All other possibilities just DO NOT exist, just like the black untouchable Christians in their own countries USA or say Europe etc.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
“Now I begin to understand why you have to deny the relationship between Hinduism and the ancient Graeco-Roman religion:” have you even shown that this is true ? Christianity on the other hand is borrowed heavily from Roman mythologies…
January 6th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
“continuum is a group of people hiding behind the same nickname. That’s what our Moslem friends used to do. Their aim is to hijack the discussion now that they’ve been left without arguments to defend islam.”
Whatever suits you Christian….LOL…
“I stated that somebody may have written Paul’s letters in his name, because it was common practice to do so: it was a literary genre. But the point that Paul’s letters are the earliest documents is unknown to most people. Evidently this is not the babbling continuum writing.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Date_of_composition
According to tradition, the earliest of the books were the letters of Paul,
“No, there’s not. On a fine day the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans who lived around the Black Sea decided to go on holidays, …..Do you think they teleported themselves there?”
May they jumped out of your imagination…
“Maybe. But the Hindu pantheon isn’t that different from that of the Greeks, the Romans and others. This is a fact.”
Anybody who has studied Hinduism properly cannot make such ludicrous statements.
“Theological conceptions may have evolved differently, but the substance is one and the same.”
The oldest document in Hinduism itself refutes such a claim. Even Western indologists did NOT make such stupid claims.
“If you are so good you know about Paul’s letters, how come you say such stupid things about the Christian resurrection myth? Is it again another person writing? Or is it just your intellectual dishonesty speaking?”
Paul was hallucinating things, people hallucinate…
January 6th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
“continuum is a group of people hiding behind the same nickname. That’s what our Moslem friends used to do. Their aim is to hijack the discussion now that they’ve been left without arguments to defend islam.”
Whatever suits you Christian….LOL…
“I stated that somebody may have written Paul’s letters in his name, because it was common practice to do so: it was a literary genre. But the point that Paul’s letters are the earliest documents is unknown to most people. Evidently this is not the babbling continuum writing.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Date_of_composition
According to tradition, the earliest of the books were the letters of Paul,
“No, there’s not. On a fine day the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans who lived around the Black Sea decided to go on holidays, …..Do you think they teleported themselves there?”
May they jumped out of your imagination…
“Maybe. But the Hindu pantheon isn’t that different from that of the Greeks, the Romans and others. This is a fact.”
Anybody who has studied Hinduism properly cannot make such ludicrous statements.
“Theological conceptions may have evolved differently, but the substance is one and the same.”
The oldest document in Hinduism itself refutes such a claim. Even Western indologists did NOT make such stupid claims.
“If you are so good you know about Paul’s letters, how come you say such stupid things about the Christian resurrection myth? Is it again another person writing? Or is it just your intellectual dishonesty speaking?”
Paul was hallucinating things, people hallucinate…
“They came in from another galaxy. They landed in different places with their spacecrafts. That’s why there are no traces left. I’m not an archaeologist, but I find it quite ridiculous to admit migrations into Europe based on archeological findings (burial sites and rituals as well as related finds) ……. into thinking that they are autochthonous. If the Dravidans and Altaic peoples are related, what are the Indo-Europeans doing between them?”
You make a logical fallacy of assuming that Indo-Europeans existed and then conclude the same. Your argument on the reason of lack of evidence is quite weak. The theory says that these so called “Indo-European Aryans” travelled with horses, chariots etc. to conquer the Dravidians. Such a large scale movement should leave traces of movement all through Central Asia. during that time period. However there is NO shred of evidence that this took place. The whole theory originate from racist European mindset.
“Yes, let’s forget about the millions of Germans, Greeks, Italians, Slavs, Hindustanis spread throughout the globe for a moment and the huge lexical stock they have in common… Now I begin to understand why you have to deny the relationship between Hinduism and the ancient Graeco-Roman religion: it’s a piece of evidence against your points.”
Yes…. Yes…. All you have is linguistics…. It could have been simple lingusitic influence with cross-culture contacts…. but somehow to racist European whites and Christians and Muslims, it must have been some invasion. All other possibilities just DO NOT exist, just like the black untouchable Christians in their own countries USA or say Europe etc.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
What a nuisance! Always the same load of bullshit to deviate from the topic.
Christianity on the other hand is borrowed heavily from Roman mythologies…
First an expert on the history of Christianity and now an idiot speaking of Roman mythologies (what the hell are they supposed to be?). Ask the one who wrote before you and made a few interesting points to lend you a couple of books or borrow some literature on Indo-European institutions and history of religions.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
“What a nuisance! Always the same load of bullshit to deviate from the topic.”
Right…people like you are experts in diverting the issue and talk about some imaginart theories…LOL
“First an expert on the history of Christianity and now an idiot speaking of Roman mythologies (what the hell are they supposed to be?). Ask the one who wrote before you and made a few interesting points to lend you a couple of books or borrow some literature on Indo-European institutions and history of religions.”
“literature on Indo-European institutions” ????? talk about being an idiot… Ofcourse Christians have to deny any influence of Roman pantheon like Mithras etc. who date to their early Christian era, but find no problem with connecting Indian religion which started around 1500-2000 BC and Roman religion which had its birth at the least 1500-2000 years later…
Talk about idiocy…
January 6th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Whatever suits you Christian….LOL…
And your mother… With all the respect that may be due to her.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Date_of_composition
Nice to know that. wikipedia is an unreliable source. The point is correct, but I see you wouldn’t be able to sustain it philologically, theologically or historically. You’re less intelligent than I thought. That explains why you talk through your ass sometimes.
May they jumped out of your imagination…
Maybe they just have no place in your psychotic world: psychosis compels you to eliminate whatever may imperil your insane world-outlook.
Anybody who has studied Hinduism properly cannot make such ludicrous statements. [...] Even Western indologists did NOT make such stupid claims.
I make it and it’s far less ludicrous than you may want to make it appear. The Indo-European pantheon is basically the same for all Indo-Europeans. Whatever theological or philosophical conceptions may have been derived separately and at a later time doesn’t matter. The Greeks developed philosophy, for instance. The peoples of India never did: they had gymnosophists.
Whatever syncretic elements were added to Hinduism, that doesn’t change the substance: the origin is common. Perhaps you wish to prove that the gods of the Hindu pantheon were adopted en mass from other peoples and cultures, but then you would have to prove the pre-existence of these peoples and cultures and establish connections of some sort, wouldn’t you? I find this latter hypothesis challenging in a way, but also ludicrous.
The basic linguistic stock of Indo-European languages speaks for a common cultural background: kinship terminology, for instance, or the numbering system. But I see you must deny a common Indo-European origin to support your claims, so that hundreds of similarities can be explained away through influence. Such degrees of influence could never be called influence: in fact they’re called common origins, unless some alien civilisation taught half of the world to count in the same way and call a mother and a father exactly like that in every IE language. If there’s any evidence of that, please submit it and if it makes sense I’ll change my mind. However, don’t look for such evidence, because it just isn’t there.
You make a logical fallacy of assuming that Indo-Europeans existed and then conclude the same.
If you ignore my premises perhaps it may seem that way. But you explain away substantial similarities through a theory of influences on such a large scale in matter of numbers of peoples and square kilometers at such ancient times that your views eventually show how partisan they are: you need to say that all the peoples of India are autochthonous. Same premises same conclusions. What is it you support? The domino effect influence theory of linguistic and anthropology combined? Pooh!
Paul was hallucinating
Are you sure? Before saying he was hallucinating, can you say he certainly existed? I can’t. No-one can. Must the rest of the world be made up of fools in order for you to be right? That’s a logical fallacy, isn’t it?
All you have is linguistics
And that wouldn’t be enough? Remember all you have is the The domino effect influence theory of combined linguistic and anthropology working on a ludicrously large scale.
The theory says that these so called “Indo-European Aryans” travelled with horses, chariots etc. Such a large scale movement should leave traces of movement all through Central Asia.
You mean that after several millennia you expect to find the wheels of those chariots or the tracks on the ground? Maybe millions of wheels throughout central Asia… Maybe the problem you have is with words and you don’t like the word invasion. Call it not always peaceful migration.
cross-culture contacts…. to racist European whites and Christians and Muslims it must have been some invasion
One more conspiracy theory. You left out the Jews this time. What was I saying about your psychosis?
Oh well, that’s enough. I’ve had enough. Really.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Ofcourse Christians have to deny any influence of Roman pantheon like Mithras
LOL! Do you know anything about that secret mysteric cult into which only males were admitted? Would you mind sharing the news? Did you know that there was no god by that name worshipped in Rome and that the name itself was a label intended to mislead outsiders? Did you know that mithraism, as far as can be gathered from its iconography, was an astral cult?
But who cares. As long as you can divert the attention from islam to Christianity, anything will do.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Ibrahim:
“Man, huntington, was right. There is a serious clash between civilizations. I think his view has been vindicated. We have an army of Hindus and Christians ready to kill each other, while the Muslims wait for the right time to pounce on both of them”
toshiro68
“It’s incredible to see these covert Moslems and islamised Hindus come here and attack Christianity on a site that was set up in order to expose islam: the very victims of islam are offering us the sorriest sight of all, the sight of what cowardice does to men as they grovel in the dirt.”
This website has been hijacked by fanatics from all sides of the spectrum.
“The fear of islam is not the only problem. Ignorance plays a decisive role, too: so many peace-loving Hindus will tell you all religions teach love for humanity. By all religions they mean also islam.”
The same can also be said about Christianity, but as we can see people have no problem attacking it, leaving Islam alone.
“There was never found any trace of “Indoeuropeans” having travelled through central Asia.
They came in from another galaxy. They landed in different places with their spacecrafts. That’s why there are no traces left. I’m not an archaeologist, but I find it quite ridiculous to admit migrations into Europe based on archeological findings (burial sites and rituals as well as related finds) while having to think that in India nobody ever lifted their butts from their stools in order to coax the majority of Indians (who speak Indo-European languages) into thinking that they are autochthonous. If the Dravidans and Altaic peoples are related, what are the Indo-Europeans doing between them?”
Ha ha ha. That’s really funny.
You know I would suggest that everyone who has contributed to this forum to do some scholarly research on Christianity and Hinduism, but that would be a waste of my time since that would require too much mental effort for some people.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
“And your mother… With all the respect that may be due to her.”
Typical low level Christian logic I guess, if you do not have lgical explanation attack poster’s mother….
“Nice to know that. wikipedia is an unreliable source.”
Anything that goes against my wishes is “unreliable”…LOL
“The point is correct, but I see you wouldn’t be able to sustain it philologically, theologically or historically. You’re less intelligent than I thought. That explains why you talk through your ass sometimes.”
You say the point is correct and then claim I am less intelligent etc…Who is speaking through his ass ?
“Maybe they just have no place in your psychotic world: psychosis compels you to eliminate whatever may imperil your insane world-outlook.”
May be in your psychotic racist world imaginary beings/events always exist… Did you provide any evidence that they exist until now, except pure speculation ?
“I make it and it’s far less ludicrous than you may want to make it appear. The Indo-European pantheon is basically the same for all Indo-Europeans.”
How exactly ? Can you prove this ? Any fool can make claims..
“Whatever theological or philosophical conceptions may have been derived separately and at a later time doesn’t matter. The Greeks developed philosophy, for instance. The peoples of India never did: they had gymnosophists.”
and whether the fact that there is NO evidence for your claims doesn’t matter too..LOL….
Gymnosophists ? You are an ignorant arrogant white racist…Academicians have recognized the greatness of Indian philosophy, including racists like Max Muller who initially was against Hinduism. Later in his life he has written positively on Upanishads.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/philosophy/LPSG/Indian.pdf
“Whatever syncretic elements were added to Hinduism, that doesn’t change the substance: the origin is common. Perhaps you wish to prove that the gods of the Hindu pantheon were adopted en mass from other peoples and cultures………. but also ludicrous.”
You are a stupid fellow…. The idea of Vedas is clearly stated in ONE sentence.
“Ekan Sat Vipra Bahuda Vadanti” – Truth is one, the wise call it by different names.
Fools like you who have NOT read Indian philosophy cannot comment on it.
“The basic linguistic stock of Indo-European languages speaks for a common cultural background: ……. If there’s any evidence of that, please submit it and if it makes sense I’ll change my mind. However, don’t look for such evidence, because it just isn’t there.”
So… How does this prove invasion theory at all ? This only shows common cultural background, beyond that it does NOT show anything else keeping in mind there is NOT aniota of evidence of large scale migrations from Central Asia into India…
Just because you cannot think other ways of widespread influence, you cannot claim there was invasion. More research and more evidences are required to make any conclusion.
For all you know there may have been very close exchanges for a very long time between different civilizations.
“If you ignore my premises perhaps it may seem that way. But you explain away substantial similarities through a theory of influences on such a large scale …… Same premises same conclusions. What is it you support? The domino effect influence theory of linguistic and anthropology combined? Pooh!”
Just copy pasting some arguments from some internet articles does NOT show you are very knowledgeable…
It may seem impossible for you, but that does NOT mean that this cannot take place and who told that they necessarily needed to be at large distances ? May be there was large scale migration from India, Iran and such areas after they were influenced by Vedic culture. They may have mingled with other cultures and therefore influenced those languages over long periods of time.
The fact remains that there is NO IOTA of evidence for the “invasion theory” or “migration theory from India or to India”. So when there is NO evidence either way I wonder why Christians like you harp on “invasion theory” as though this is THE ONLY possible solution to this problem.
“Are you sure? Before saying he was hallucinating, can you say he certainly existed? I can’t. No-one can. Must the rest of the world be made up of fools in order for you to be right? That’s a logical fallacy, isn’t it?”
There is NO logical fallacy here. there are so many other possibilities, but as a Christian you can see ONLY Christian perspective on all subjects…LOL…
“And that wouldn’t be enough? Remember all you have is the The domino effect influence theory of combined linguistic and anthropology working on a ludicrously large scale.”
1. All Linguistics says is there is a connection and NOT there was an invasion.
2. If you can ludicrously conclude without any evidence that “invasion” has taken place, when clearly there is clearly NO TRACE of this invasion path, then it is more than logical that domino effect could have taken place.
However I understand why you being a Christian will always jump on invasion theory.
“You mean that after several millennia you expect to find the wheels of those chariots or the tracks on the ground? Maybe millions of wheels throughout central Asia… Maybe the problem you have is with words and you don’t like the word invasion. Call it not always peaceful migration.”
Oh…now it is a peaceful migration…..from invasion… that is a lot better that you see some other possibilities now. LOL…. Again, what evidence do you have for the migration ? Since you make a claim, prove it. All I suggest is there are hell lot of possibilities and to me cultural influence seems through migration most logical.
Again I am NOT suggesting the direction of influence here. May be it is from India or to India, more research and evidence is definitely required to find out what happened.
Until then Christian bigots like yourselves need to STOP posing yourselves as scholars in subjects which you have NO idea of….
“One more conspiracy theory. You left out the Jews this time. What was I saying about your psychosis?
Oh well, that’s enough. I’ve had enough. Really.”
Jews DID NOT come up with such racist theories.
and by the way, this is NO conspiracy at all. One needs to read the letters of Max Muller who came up with different explanations about this “Aryan invasion theory”.
Besides it is common knowledge that British were racist scum and treated Indians that way. Academia was no different in those time when British academicians like max Muller did NOT hide their over zealous Christian bigotry.
Letters of Max Müller.
————————————————————————
“The Life and Letters of Friedrich Max Müller.” First published in 1902 (London and N.Y.). Reprint in 1976 (USA).
TO HIS WIFE, OXFORD, December 9, 1867.
“…I feel convinced, though I shall not live to see it, that this edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India, and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what that root is, I feel sure, the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3,000 years.”
To Chevalier Bunsen. 55 St. John Street, Oxford, August 25, 1856.
“India is much riper for Christianity than Rome or Greece were at the time of St. Paul. The rotten tree has for some time had artificial supports… For the good of this struggle I should like to lay down my life, or at least to lend my hand to bring about this struggle. Dhulip Singh is much at Court, and is evidently destined to play a political part in India.”
To the duke of Argyll. Oxford, December 16, 1868.
“India has been conquered once, but India must be conquered again, and that second conquest should be a conquest by education. Much has been done for education of late, but if the funds were tripled and quadrupled, that would hardly be enough… A new national literature may spring up, impregnated with western ideas, yet retaining its native spirit and character… A new national literature will bring with it a new national life, and new moral vigour. As to religion, that will take care of itself. The missionaries have done far more than they themselves seem to be aware of.”
“The ancient religion of India is doomed, and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?”
—————————————————-
These are enough to prove that Aryan Invasion Theory was inspired by religious bigotry and racism of European Christians..
January 6th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
“And your mother… With all the respect that may be due to her.”
Typical low level Christian logic I guess, if you do not have lgical explanation attack poster’s mother….
“Nice to know that. wikipedia is an unreliable source.”
Anything that goes against my wishes is “unreliable”…LOL
“The point is correct, but I see you wouldn’t be able to sustain it philologically, theologically or historically. You’re less intelligent than I thought. That explains why you talk through your ass sometimes.”
You say the point is correct and then claim I am less intelligent etc…Who is speaking through his ass ?
“Maybe they just have no place in your psychotic world: psychosis compels you to eliminate whatever may imperil your insane world-outlook.”
May be in your psychotic racist world imaginary beings/events always exist… Did you provide any evidence that they exist until now, except pure speculation ?
“I make it and it’s far less ludicrous than you may want to make it appear. The Indo-European pantheon is basically the same for all Indo-Europeans.”
How exactly ? Can you prove this ? Any fool can make claims..
“Whatever theological or philosophical conceptions may have been derived separately and at a later time doesn’t matter. The Greeks developed philosophy, for instance. The peoples of India never did: they had gymnosophists.”
and whether the fact that there is NO evidence for your claims doesn’t matter too..LOL….
Gymnosophists ? You are an ignorant arrogant white racist…Academicians have recognized the greatness of Indian philosophy, including racists like Max Muller who initially was against Hinduism. Later in his life he has written positively on Upanishads.
ucl.ac.uk/philosophy/LPSG/Indian.pdf
“Whatever syncretic elements were added to Hinduism, that doesn’t change the substance: the origin is common. Perhaps you wish to prove that the gods of the Hindu pantheon were adopted en mass from other peoples and cultures………. but also ludicrous.”
You are a stupid fellow…. The idea of Vedas is clearly stated in ONE sentence.
“Ekan Sat Vipra Bahuda Vadanti” – Truth is one, the wise call it by different names.
Fools like you who have NOT read Indian philosophy cannot comment on it.
“The basic linguistic stock of Indo-European languages speaks for a common cultural background: ……. If there’s any evidence of that, please submit it and if it makes sense I’ll change my mind. However, don’t look for such evidence, because it just isn’t there.”
So… How does this prove invasion theory at all ? This only shows common cultural background, beyond that it does NOT show anything else keeping in mind there is NOT aniota of evidence of large scale migrations from Central Asia into India…
Just because you cannot think other ways of widespread influence, you cannot claim there was invasion. More research and more evidences are required to make any conclusion.
For all you know there may have been very close exchanges for a very long time between different civilizations.
“If you ignore my premises perhaps it may seem that way. But you explain away substantial similarities through a theory of influences on such a large scale …… Same premises same conclusions. What is it you support? The domino effect influence theory of linguistic and anthropology combined? Pooh!”
Just copy pasting some arguments from some internet articles does NOT show you are very knowledgeable…
It may seem impossible for you, but that does NOT mean that this cannot take place and who told that they necessarily needed to be at large distances ? May be there was large scale migration from India, Iran and such areas after they were influenced by Vedic culture. They may have mingled with other cultures and therefore influenced those languages over long periods of time.
The fact remains that there is NO IOTA of evidence for the “invasion theory” or “migration theory from India or to India”. So when there is NO evidence either way I wonder why Christians like you harp on “invasion theory” as though this is THE ONLY possible solution to this problem.
“Are you sure? Before saying he was hallucinating, can you say he certainly existed? I can’t. No-one can. Must the rest of the world be made up of fools in order for you to be right? That’s a logical fallacy, isn’t it?”
There is NO logical fallacy here. there are so many other possibilities, but as a Christian you can see ONLY Christian perspective on all subjects…LOL…
“And that wouldn’t be enough? Remember all you have is the The domino effect influence theory of combined linguistic and anthropology working on a ludicrously large scale.”
1. All Linguistics says is there is a connection and NOT there was an invasion.
2. If you can ludicrously conclude without any evidence that “invasion” has taken place, when clearly there is clearly NO TRACE of this invasion path, then it is more than logical that domino effect could have taken place.
However I understand why you being a Christian will always jump on invasion theory.
“You mean that after several millennia you expect to find the wheels of those chariots or the tracks on the ground? Maybe millions of wheels throughout central Asia… Maybe the problem you have is with words and you don’t like the word invasion. Call it not always peaceful migration.”
Oh…now it is a peaceful migration…..from invasion… that is a lot better that you see some other possibilities now. LOL…. Again, what evidence do you have for the migration ? Since you make a claim, prove it. All I suggest is there are hell lot of possibilities and to me cultural influence seems through migration most logical.
Again I am NOT suggesting the direction of influence here. May be it is from India or to India, more research and evidence is definitely required to find out what happened.
Until then Christian bigots like yourselves need to STOP posing yourselves as scholars in subjects which you have NO idea of….
“One more conspiracy theory. You left out the Jews this time. What was I saying about your psychosis?
Oh well, that’s enough. I’ve had enough. Really.”
Jews DID NOT come up with such racist theories.
and by the way, this is NO conspiracy at all. One needs to read the letters of Max Muller who came up with different explanations about this “Aryan invasion theory”.
Besides it is common knowledge that British were racist scum and treated Indians that way. Academia was no different in those time when British academicians like max Muller did NOT hide their over zealous Christian bigotry.
Letters of Max Müller.
————————————————————————
“The Life and Letters of Friedrich Max Müller.” First published in 1902 (London and N.Y.). Reprint in 1976 (USA).
TO HIS WIFE, OXFORD, December 9, 1867.
“…I feel convinced, though I shall not live to see it, that this edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India, and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what that root is, I feel sure, the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3,000 years.”
To Chevalier Bunsen. 55 St. John Street, Oxford, August 25, 1856.
“India is much riper for Christianity than Rome or Greece were at the time of St. Paul. The rotten tree has for some time had artificial supports… For the good of this struggle I should like to lay down my life, or at least to lend my hand to bring about this struggle. Dhulip Singh is much at Court, and is evidently destined to play a political part in India.”
To the duke of Argyll. Oxford, December 16, 1868.
“India has been conquered once, but India must be conquered again, and that second conquest should be a conquest by education. Much has been done for education of late, but if the funds were tripled and quadrupled, that would hardly be enough… A new national literature may spring up, impregnated with western ideas, yet retaining its native spirit and character… A new national literature will bring with it a new national life, and new moral vigour. As to religion, that will take care of itself. The missionaries have done far more than they themselves seem to be aware of.”
“The ancient religion of India is doomed, and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?”
—————————————————-
These are enough to prove that Aryan Invasion Theory was inspired by religious bigotry and racism of European Christians..
January 7th, 2009 at 12:10 am
“LOL! Do you know anything about that secret mysteric cult into which only males were admitted? Would you mind sharing the news? Did you know that there was no god by that name worshipped in Rome and that the name itself was a label intended to mislead outsiders? Did you know that mithraism, as far as can be gathered from its iconography, was an astral cult?”
Yes…Yes…. You aer a scholar of every subject in existence…. Did I say Christianity is carbon copy of Mithraic cult ? All I said is Mithraism influenced early christianity.
What if Mithraism is astral cult ? There are similarities like virgin birth, being visited by shepherds during birth etc.
Christianity borrowed a lot from pagan religions.
January 7th, 2009 at 12:18 am
“There was never found any trace of “Indoeuropeans” having traveled through central Asia.
They came in from another galaxy. They landed in different places with their spacecrafts. ”
Marie,
I hope you understand that there is NO evidence for the so called “Indoeuropeans” to have even existed, much less the stupidity of the statement made by Toshiro.
He assumed there were some invaders called “Indoeuropeans” and then makes a conclusion without proof.
Christians must be the dumbest people on Earth when it comes to history or science.
“You know I would suggest that everyone who has contributed to this forum to do some scholarly research on Christianity and Hinduism, but that would be a waste of my time since that would require too much mental effort for some people.”
Least of all Christians should make such a request to others. Ignorant Christians should go and study properly. Hindus have a good idea on history of Christianity and Hinduism.
January 7th, 2009 at 12:39 am
“You mean that after several millennia you expect to find the wheels of those chariots or the tracks on the ground? Maybe millions of wheels throughout central Asia… Maybe the problem you have is with words and you don’t like the word invasion. Call it not always peaceful migration.”
More on this point. Nobody expects to find tracks of wheels etc. Considering such a large scale “invasion” or “migration” (whatever name you racists want to give for your imaginary theories), there should be some evidence of horse bones, or parts of wheels, potteries or some definitive evidence all along the alleged route they could have probably taken.
Despite the TOTAL lack of evidence for the alleged migration or invasion, racist historians and racist bigoted Christians still claim that this theory of invasion or migration is the ONLY solution to the problem of linguistics.
I hope an average reader sees through the BIGOTRY of these so called scholars in academia who peddle such theories, only with their secret racist religious bigoted motives which they hide.
However these same people vehemently deny the possibility of migration from India to Central Asia or other regions. That should show everyone that RACISM is the prime motive for invasion of India or migration to India theories.
January 7th, 2009 at 12:49 am
if religion is man made then why are christianity islam and judaism always attacked? why are their prophets always ridiculed?
January 7th, 2009 at 12:51 am
“if religion is man made then why are christianity islam and judaism always attacked? why are their prophets always ridiculed?”
It is ridiculed because IT IS man made and FULL of errors.
January 7th, 2009 at 1:28 am
What you said about Christians knowledge on history is quite right. Afterall, all Judeo-Christian religions believe that earth was created around 4004 BC. The proof given in the Bible is here
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/creation/biblical_age_earth.htm — CAN ANY LEARNED XIAN SCHOLAR REFUTE THIS?
So all Christian historians try to fit world history in the last 5000 yrs. When Europeans arrived in India, they thought the world was created around 5000 yrs ago. Even todate, all historians say there was no civilization before 5000 yrs.
Well Toshiro, Proud Christian, Freedofighter67, it is high time you change your bible coz it teaches earth was created 5000 yrs ago. Moslems copied this idea from Bible and believed in the same myth.
Now this is reserved to Freedomfighter67: Can you tell why the Church is trying to hijack yoga? Here is the proof http://www.christianyoga.us/home.htm
If Yoga belongs to heathens/pagans, why should the church adopt the term? It is practically because there are no buyers for Xnity in the west. Yoga, Pranayama, meditation, and Ayurveda are becoming popular in the west n hence the church is losing grip. Church borrowed cross, Dec 25, and many teachings from PAGAN religions. So I know it is shameless. Now, you want to borrow yoga. There was an article on FFI under the title “MY HOUSE IS MINE; YOUR HOUSE IS MINE TOO”. Both Xnity and Islam have practised the same dirty thing for ages.
January 7th, 2009 at 2:05 am
Max Müller was a romantic with a vivid and sometimes uncontrolled imagination. Through his combination of erudition, enthusiasm, skill in presentation and fortunate circumstances, he came to dominate the new field of Indology. To account for the similarities between Indian and European languages, European scholars went on to propose something called the ‘Aryan invasion’. According to this theory, a nomadic people inhabiting the Eurasian steppes speaking the common ancestor of Sanskrit and Greek — variously called Indo-European, Indo-Aryan and so forth — invaded India from the northwest and settled in India. Max Müller placed this invasion in 1500 BC, and the composition of the Rigveda in 1200 BC. He presented various arguments, but it is now known — we have his own word for it — that what influenced him was his firm belief in the Christian dogma of the creation of the world in 4004 BC (October 23 at 9:00 AM, time zone unspecified), and the Biblical Flood in 2448 BC!
This highlights another problem that has plagued Indology right from the start. Not only was Indology (and its associated field of comparative linguistics) without a foundation, but also heavily influenced by Christian beliefs and political considerations. This is reflected in its methodology also which often resembles theology more than science. This can be seen in the following statement of the well-known linguist Murray Emeneau made as recently as 1954:
At some time in the second millennium B.C., probably comparatively early in the millennium, a band or bands of speakers of an Indo-European language, later to be called Sanskrit, entered India over the northwest passes. This is our linguistic doctrine, which has been held now for more than a century and a half. There seems to be no reason to distrust the arguments for it, in spite of the traditional Hindu ignorance of any such invasion. (Emphasis added.)
As Emeneau himself acknowledges, this notion of a foreign origin for the Vedas and Sanskrit is a ‘linguistic doctrine’ for which there is no evidence in the Vedic or other ancient literature. Presumably Emeneau expects us to accept his doctrine on faith — as revealed truth. To a scientifically informed person this seems more like theology than anything else.
January 7th, 2009 at 2:06 am
Sorry folks, it seems I posted this article on a wrong forum. However, the comments posted here makes it most obvious how accurate Huntington’s prediction has been.
January 7th, 2009 at 4:42 am
This is Dharmayuddha (the fight for establishment of righteousness). Seers and saints across the world have predicted it. All this is bound to happen because it is the law of nature that when there is an imbalance in nature because of Adharma growing out of proportion, attempts to establish Dharma are bound to happen. One cannot remain just a mute spectator but will be forced to take sides. This is the end of Kaliyuga and saints have predicted very ghastly and horrific times ahead. The role of India cannot be overlooked because India is the land where Dharma was established time and again. Bhavishya Purana and Nostradamus also mention about this war.
January 7th, 2009 at 4:50 am
The clash of civilization started with the births of semitic, monotheistic cults, namely Christianity and Islam. In the past there was a healthy exchange of ideas between the Greeks, Chinese, Indians, Mesopotomeans, and other civilizations. No civilization invaded others IN THE NAME OF RELIGION. However, with the advent of Christianity and Islam–which hate idolatry to the core–dark age clouded Europe and Middle east. However, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Pharsees, Sikhs, and other so called pagan/heathen religions never fought wars in the name of religion. But the crusaders (Christians) and Jihadis did for centuries together. They try to dominate other religions, cultures, and civilizations. By doing so, they usurp everything from the existing culture and claim it to be theirs.
January 7th, 2009 at 4:55 am
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/creation/biblical_age_earth.htm is really good. It shows that Christian and Quranic God are one and the same. How on the earth you believe that earth was created in around 4000 BC. Both Bible and Quran are junks. Please don’t print copies of them and waste resources.
January 7th, 2009 at 6:37 am
We do need copies of qran to wipe the back side and so please continue printing. We need the original of the qrand, that’s bible to prove the similarities to the toilet tissue paper.
Judeo christian tradition Ahh I was under the impression the jews nailed the fellow jew and handed him over ot the Romans?
The moslems and christians have the same trait.Low level thinking and very low level intelligence and foul mouth.That’s the effect of reading too much of qrand and the vile bible. I am at a loss to see the stupidity of both these fellas over here.I have many white christian? friends and they all seem to be perfectly sane and sensible people, even when they talk ( though rare) about christianity and bible. I am appalled at the level of intolerance and ignorance of the same christians on this message board.Surprisingly they give the same arguements as moslems do for qran, in support of the absurdities and stupidities of bible.
Is earth Flat? Yes or no? Does the earth go round the sun? Yes or no?Was galileo correct or bible? A simple yes or no answer wil make any freedom espousing proud christian squirm like a worm, if a few gray cells are still left.
Was the earth created 4004 BC October 9th 9 am? Yes or no?
The DOB of the dead jew on a stick is not exactly known and even if it was 25th dec, the current december does not indicate the same. December the tenth month of the year before gregorian calendar. Currently december is the 12th month.Pre gregorian calendar ( Julian calendar) has december as the tenth month.The dead jew was born on 25th of the tenth month and not on 25th of the 12th month.Julian calendar was changed to gregorian by the order of pope gregory the 13th and so the name gregorian calendar. Currently christians are celebrating the 25th december the 12 th month as birth day of the dead jew.They are so wrong and they do not even know.LOL.
In case the people do not know
September is the seventh monht. The Sanskrit word for seven is sapta.
October is the eighth month,Sanskrit word is Ashta
November is the ninth month and sanskrit word is Nov/nova
December is the tenth month and sanskrit is dasha /dacha
How come the Hindus had system of months etc???? I was under the impression that it was judeo christian tradition.Ahh Could it be that both my lord and I are ignoramuses?? Only a closed bible will open the mind.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:39 am
M.A KHAN.
Nice observation about the article posted and the response it got, as someone wrote above, there is no escaping this clash right from the onset, monotheistic religions are by default exclusive and intolerant of anything but theirs, the moment a religion says “you must believe this or go to hell, a clash seed has been planted, how the heck would anyone look at someone else and think the person is going to hell?
So far so good, great insight has been disseminated on this thread, if you are a christian on this thread, just try to look at proudkafir post just above this, if your brain acrobatics capabilities can not handle or unweave the absurdities in your book, then welcome to rationality, if you are a muslim, well muslims are total fools and so terrorised by the koranic holy threats to reason, but then I once believed but not without serious doubts anyway, and I got freed, so think about all the crimes, contradictions, violence, hate e.t.c that your book contains and hopefully you will become liberated.
January 7th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
there should be some evidence of horse bones, or parts of wheels, potteries or some definitive evidence all along the alleged route they could have probably taken.
That’s absurd. What you do have is more IE peoples between India and the Black Sea: peoples who have been there for millennia. Do you happen to know the Persians, at least from wikipedia? I guess a whole people is better then a couple of shards. They find themselves on the way between the Black Sea and India. Persian and Hindi belong to the Indo-Iranic sub-group of Indo-European family of languages. What a funny coincidence… Not to mention intersting coincidences in the Ancient religions of those peoples… Do you still need an old pot to make you happy?
January 7th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
continuum, I’m really fed up with you. I don’t do copy-pasting from wikipedia unlike you and I’m in no awe before all the wisdom of India like the scholars you quoted: so try to understand there are people who don’t give a darn about your country and your culture. A few quotations won’t help you and the few points that you borrow from others and that seem to support what you have to say.
About Mithraism, you are just wrong.
About my Christian faith… well, think of your pathetic nationalism and your own islamisation.
January 7th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
“That’s absurd. What you do have is more IE peoples between India and the Black Sea: peoples who have been there for millennia. Do you happen to know the Persians, at least from wikipedia? I guess a whole people is better then a couple of shards.”
Yes…..yes….In other words there is NO evidence for these claims… All you have is that there are Persians everywhere in between black sea and India…. That is because Persia lies between this place. One could claim this as evidence for out of India theory as well….. This is NO evidence… What evidence you have that so called IE people traveled towards India for invasion or migration…
Why could it NOT be that Persians were simply influenced by Indian culture ?
Why is Avestan dated later than Rig Veda ? Is it possible that Pessians were later influenced by Indian culture ?
If an invasion happened, why is there NO evidence of large scale massacre in Indus Valley ? All they found is 37 skeletons at one time buried haphazardly. This IS NO evidence for large scale invasion.
There is NO evidence for large scale migration to India as well.
“They find themselves on the way between the Black Sea and India. Persian and Hindi belong to the Indo-Iranic sub-group of Indo-European family of languages. What a funny coincidence”
What a funny argument ? It can be equally claimed that this evidence for out of India migration.
But I know why you claim this is evidence for invasion of India ? Christians have to think like that.
“Not to mention intersting coincidences in the Ancient religions of those peoples… Do you still need an old pot to make you happy?”
Again, why one cannot quote this as evidence for out of India migration or simply cultural domino effect over a period.
January 7th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
“continuum, I’m really fed up with you. I don’t do copy-pasting from wikipedia unlike you and I’m in no awe before all the wisdom of India like the scholars you quoted:”
Yes….yes… You will NOT be awed at all, that would mean accepting that somebody other than white Europeans can be intelligent and that something other than Abrahamic religion has something to offer to this world.
“so try to understand there are people who don’t give a darn about your country and your culture. A few quotations won’t help you and the few points that you borrow from others and that seem to support what you have to say.”
Max Muller is one of the most influential person responsible for bringing in “Aryan Invasion theory” into academia. Quoting his letters is significant and proves beyond doubt that these so called scholars were completely inspired by biblical nonsense and racism and bigotry. Thus I have made my point clear.
You have a problem accepting facts, just as you cannot accept facts regarding your religion.
“About Mithraism, you are just wrong.”
As I told, you have problems accepting facts. What I stated about Mithraism is accepted in academia. I did NOT create it out of thin air.
“About my Christian faith… well, think of your pathetic nationalism and your own islamisation.”
Yes…yes…. Anybody who exposes Christianity is ISLAMIZED by default to “Christian scholars” like you….LOL….
January 8th, 2009 at 2:57 am
toshiro68…just to remind you…if you argue with an APE you will get all the nonsense answer..this APE pretend to be hindus….
January 8th, 2009 at 5:42 am
“toshiro68…just to remind you…if you argue with an APE you will get all the nonsense answer..this APE pretend to be hindus”
what an intelligent and thoughtful response. WoW….
The biblical followers some time amuse me ( unlike their moslem cousins who always amuse me) with their stupidities and absurdities. I used to wonder some times why I come across these chaps, when I keep meeting sensible nominal christians and nonsensical moslems.Now its all crystal clear.its just the evil absurd,stupid,incoherent,idiotic,violent,vile,excrement called B&Q!
Also please notice how the language of the biblical followers rapidly deteriorates.Infact I have a scale.The more stupid these people are, the more quickly their language degenerates.The moslems are the stupidest and so they start with a bad language or qrandic language.
Earth is still falt for these fellas and so they are mortified to reach the end of the earthlest they fall off. Now I see why they have not left their place of birth. Folks dont worry.Earth is not flat even though the dead jew on the stick swears so.
Earth is in motion!Apes are asking questions and these chaps are incapable of drumming upa coherent response.What a pity.The followers of christ have to be left in the lurch.Oh God why have you forsaken them??? that too to apes.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:15 am
One thing to say that others are stupid and absurd but it’s another thing to see these descendant of APE throwing their tantrum here in FFI. They worship cows and APEs and they think that they knew the ages of this universe.LOL!!!
January 8th, 2009 at 9:21 am
It shows that Christian and Quranic God are one and the same. How on the earth you believe that earth was created in around 4000 BC. Both Bible and Quran are junks. Please don’t print copies of them and waste resources.
Wagamama…if you think that APE is so smart why don’t you tell us here how old is this earth?
January 8th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Well Toshiro, Proud Christian, Freedofighter67, it is high time you change your bible coz it teaches earth was created 5000 yrs ago. Moslems copied this idea from Bible and believed in the same myth.
Well silenzer…if you think that APE is so smart why don’t you tell us here how old is this earth?
January 8th, 2009 at 9:30 am
The generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). This value is derived from several different lines of evidence.The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods). Some of these rocks are sedimentary, and include minerals which are themselves as old as 4.1 to 4.2 billion years. Rocks of this age are relatively rare, however rocks that are at least 3.5 billion years in age have been found on North America, Greenland, Australia, Africa, and Asia.
you nrrd google and not any wagamama! Ahh but you need lots of brains to grasp that.Stop reading bible repeatedly. earth is not 6000 years old! there you are.happy?
January 8th, 2009 at 9:32 am
ooo lallala earth is 6000 years old. what a cretin, what a lord and what spook!
January 8th, 2009 at 9:50 am
ooo lallala earth is 6000 years old. what a cretin, what a lord and what spook!
proudkafir..if you ape brain is so smart why don’t you tell us how old is this earth?…LOL!!!! you APE….
January 8th, 2009 at 9:54 am
The generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). This value is derived from several different lines of evidence.The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods).
Tell us proudkafir..is that fact or just a theory….Ooop!!! I know is that what your grandpa the APE told you right?? LOL!!!!..
January 8th, 2009 at 10:07 am
This is a request to Tuvong, Toshiro, Proudchristian, Freedomfighter67 etc.
Sometime back when Islam was being discussed you people expressed very well to the effect that Islam is a hoax, Mohammd was the most wicked person ever walked on earth, etc. But when people started discussing Bible & Christianity all of you got offended and started abusing those who pointed out absurdities in Bible. Especially Notorousprophet made you all look deaf & dumb and you called him a muslim. I am sure if one can argue with such logic he cannot be a muslim, at the most an ex-muslim like Dr. Ali Sina. Now in this colunmn one of you called Continuum a muslim – the most stupid thing. This clearly show that you people know nothing about other religions than Bible and Christianity. Please study religions other than Abrahamic religions and then argue…no.. you can’t, most probably you will embrace the enlightened philosophy in them.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Hi “Tuvong” Being a fanatic Christian cretin ( Oops Degenerate as you are a product of Incest) why don’t you say: When the first time Adam and Eve had sex with their own children to produce the present day cretins like you?? Who believe Jesus’s mother Marie remained virgin after giving birth to Jesus ( Oops St. Paul) Am I right baby?
January 8th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
The most authentic and conclusive data of age of earth came from radio uranium dating which establishes it at 4.5 billion years. Natural uranium has half life of 3.99 billion years, and the oldest form found in the earth is 4.5 billion years old. It is most objective and conclusive evidence so far.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
problem with biblically minded people is this.They have their eyes and their back side open but a closed mind.They can not believe the extent of stupidity, absurdity etc of bible. I would say to the dead jew on the stick.You are the cause for this!
People with unbelievable stupidity will believe bible and anything else but not science and scientific methods.For those with such low level of intelligence, all I can say is keep reading bible please.You are only fit for that!
Thats not your fault.Its your parents fault.What if they are as uneducated and unintelligent as you are? Thats the fault of bible.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
By the way the place where I was born in India has a a huge rock/collection of rocks which are 300 million year old! so much for the stupidity of the lord. That’s certainly more than 6000 years ,Considering the level of brain activity of these two legged creatures, its important to mention that 300 million years will be a lot lot more than 6000 years.Or Am I just wasting time?
January 8th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
MA Khan:
“Sorry folks, it seems I posted this article on a wrong forum. However, the comments posted here makes it most obvious how accurate Huntington’s prediction has been.”
Mr. Khan, you have my sincerest apologies. It seems this website has been hijacked by fanatics from more then one belief system.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:06 am
To Tuvong, ProudChristian, Marie, and other Christians: It is time to think rationally. Bible says that the age of earth is 6000 yrs. Here is the proof: http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/creation/biblical_age_earth.htm . Do you still believe like the 18th century European colonialists that the age of the earth is around 6000 yrs. If so, then we are dealing with Frankestein science and thus let’s end the discussion.
Carbon-dating and other scientific methods have proven that the age of the earth is 4.2-4.5 billion yrs. SO IT IS DEFINITELY OLDER THAN 6000 yrs. When you have a brain to think, why can’t you accept the faults in Bible and move on. Common, you talk about so called the development in Judeo-Christian west and yet knowingly reject the true facts. If educated Christians behave like this, then what is the difference between you and the Muslims? Let knowledge reach us from all sides.
P.S: Marie, the discussion thread is about the clash of civilisations, which is borne out of cultures and ideas. No one is hijacking anything. Otherwise, irrelevant comments would have been deleted by now. The truth is that the absurdities in the Bible are found in Quran. Take it easy and accept the facts.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:35 am
Silenzer, if you and your friend believed in theory and not fact than you and your friend are truely the sons of APE…As far as I know there is no or not even one scientist can say that the exact age of this world is 4.5 billions years.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:52 am
Vaisakhan…thank you for reminding me of notorousprophet…the problem is you are reading his post from his point of view that why you think that we are dumb and deaf but the fact is that he(notoriousprophet) acted like a street kids so also all of his gangs here in ffi.
We did not get offended when he(notorious) prophet pointed out at the absurdities in the bible but we’re just concerned at his ability to understand the story in the bible. Just because of a few incident of bad character written in the bible he(notoriousprophet) sum it up as if everything is bad. One thing you must understand is that the bible is also a history book; it recorded thing done by human being, be it a good thing or a bad thing this shows that human are under the influence of sin and evil.
Asking me to study other religion, are you telling me that other religion beside christian and muslim are perfect and without flaw?
January 9th, 2009 at 7:16 am
Ahh bible the book of triuth whole truth and nothing but truth! You must reorient yourself.Truth is not truth as rational people see.But truth is what the biblical nuts see through the prism of lord more like undies of the lord.
Truth is earth is only 6000 years old when viewed through the undies of lord.
Earth is flat as lord’s undies.
Earth is fixed using lord’s undies if you please and the sun goes round the earth,
I am sure none of these hanging on to the lord’s undies have completed their schooling ( O ) Levels.
Throw bible and qrand in the toilet and flush them both.Period. Truth will surface.
There is no derth for idiots.Started out looking for one and met thousands! Thats what biblical and qrandic reading does to the brain.Or is it that you start out with out brains and become addicted to qrand and bible? No need for intelligence, no need for thinking no need for brains.Ahh now I understand.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:23 am
Tovong, calling by names doesn’t solve the purpose. If you can’t come out of Bible’s view of the age of the earth (6000yrs), then I really can’t help you. Here is the website which gives the list of scientists who worked tirelessly to get to the figure of 4.55 billion yrs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth). I don’t say it is highly accurate but certainly earth is not 6000 yrs old. The ball is in your court
January 9th, 2009 at 7:23 am
My god.
Bible is word of god.Bible is god’s word.Bible is inspired word of god.Bible is whispered word of God.Bible is word of god spoken through primitive israelites.Bible is the primitive word of israelites.Bible is funny book.Bible is history book.Bible is absurd book,Bible is everything.Stupid, absurd,babbling, incoherent , unbelievable, confusing,confused, miraculous,historical nonsense,descriptive and not prescriptive HAHHA Bible is toilet tissue just like the younger counter part qrand.Use them freely and flush them.Dont let your children look at them.Know who advised this????
January 9th, 2009 at 8:42 am
My point of view is that the earth is flat and is only 6000 years old.You do not know how to read bible.Please learn how to keep cursing like I do and you will be able to read bible very quicly and undestand as well.Bible teaches me bad ( sorry good ) language and any one who learns bible will also learn how to believe in absurdities and will easily realise that thinking is a useless faculty .We biblical believers have no reason to apply logic and use brains.What ever we need to think has already been thought of by the dead jew on stick.Like as if we dont know the earth is a few billion years old.We do.Just our lords’ 6ooo years are 4.5 billion years.Lords 6 days are equal to 6 seconds etc.We are happy to be completely brain dead.Dont waste your time.Praise be to lord ooh lalala. aleluya laeluya….. I am free now.free from using my intelligence, free from applying logic.I am absolutely free to be a biblical nut.Stupid idiotic,moronic biblical nut who believes Bat is a bird,earth is flat and 6000 years old, virgins can give birth, sex is sin, homosexuality is acurse, etc… so on and so on……. There is a limitless stupidity waiting for us.We have no time for you all. Hey lord please forgive for eating unknowingly from the tree of knowledge. We know now that knowledge is like poisonous fruit.it awakens thinking faculty.We are nuts we do not want to think and understand. We are happy in complete and absolute ignorance, by your side. aleluya ale luaya the same thing applies to qrandic followers.they are replica’s of each other.Except the qrandic followers are more thoroughly brain dead to even allow 6 year old daughters get laid by their lords, 90 year old sodi sheikhs
January 9th, 2009 at 9:40 am
You son of APE..proof to me where did the bible say that the earth is 6000 years old?
Silenzer you said…( I don’t say it is highly accurate but certainly earth is not 6000 yrs old. The ball is in your court)
If you then say that it is not highly accurate so how do you certainly know that 6000 is not the answer either?
Proudkafir..proof to me where did you read in the bible that the earth is flat?
is that what your grandpa the APE told you?
The reason why you are so confused is that you’ve no idea about what was written in the bible and you only listen to you grandpa the APE..
January 9th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Tuvong.
Anther fundie has already asked for those proofs, here is a repost.
The age of the earth.
Let us see what Mr. Bodie Hodge have about the age of the earth, bear in mind that the young earth creationists use this date as their reference, if I see the date an automobile was manufactured, it will be child’s play for me to know how old that automobile is, will it not? It is just like the flat earth insinuating verses, if one can be on a high elevation to see all the kingdoms on earth then the fact has been stated, we all know that is not possible on a spherical earth, but what do you know about the fundies?
“Bible doesn’t say explicitly anywhere, “the earth is 6,000 years old.” Good thing it doesn’t; otherwise it would be out of date the following year. But we wouldn’t expect an all-knowing God to make that kind of a mistake.
God gave us something better. In essence, He gave us a “birth certificate.” For example, using my personal birth certificate, I can calculate how old I am at any point. It is similar with the earth. Genesis 1 says that the earth was created on the first day of creation (Genesis 1:1–5). From there, we can begin calculations of the age of the earth.
Let’s do a rough calculation to show how this works. The age of the earth can be estimated by taking the first 5 days of creation (from earth’s creation to Adam), then following the genealogies from Adam to Abraham in Genesis 5 and 11, then adding in the time from Abraham to today.
Adam was created on Day 6, so there were 5 days before him. If we add up the dates from Adam to Abraham, we get about 2,000 years, using the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis 5 and 11.3 Whether Christian or secular, most scholars would agree that Abraham lived about 2,000 B.C. (4,000 years ago).
So a simple calculation is:
5 days
+ ~2000 years
+ ~4000 years
______________
~6000 years
At this point, the first 5 days are negligible. Quite a few people have done this calculation using the Masoretic text (which is what most English translations are based on) and, with careful attention to the biblical details, have arrived at the same time-frame of about 6,000 years, or about 4,000 B.C. Two of the most popular, and perhaps the best in my opinion, are a recent work by Dr. Floyd Jones and a much earlier book by Archbishop James Ussher (1581–1656):”
After all is said and done, if we are really sincere in our quest for truth, does a book with as much weaknesses be our first priority in our quest? How could an omniscient being make so many cock-eyed suggestions in virtually every nook and cranny of his godly book????? and Paul said god is not the author of confusion, how disingenius.
BD(who laughed his head off when a friend said this “we will have the evidence of the 72 virgins at about the same time we have evidence that jesus stayed virgin himself “)
January 9th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Flat earth.
Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth’s surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth…reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth’s farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth’s farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him.
Do you still need more on this? ask any astronomer the implication of the above.
BD(who thinks the mental gymnasts here are really ready for the next olympics)
January 9th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
That’s sufficient proof for any one with some brain and thinking faculty left.What do people with damaged rear end and brain know? How does any one explain to these damaged fellows?? When the rear is leaking and the brain is reeking the earth looks and feels flat, the corpse on the cross lives on.
Thanks BD.I have come across many nominal christians who are perfectly sane and sensible and you have proved me right time and again!
January 9th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
You are welcome mate.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Tuvong,
“Asking me to study other religion, are you telling me that other religion beside christian and muslim are perfect and without flaw?”
There is nothing perfect in this world; everything is relative. Yet, only if you study other religions can you make a comparison and decide which one is better; perhaps one cannot find the best but still choose the better one. May I suggest you visit the website of the American (Anglo-Saxen race) http://www.dharmacentral.com; take your own time and come back as and when finished. Thanks.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
“To Tuvong, ProudChristian, Marie, and other Christians: It is time to think rationally. Bible says that the age of earth is 6000 yrs. Here is the proof: http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/creation/biblical_age_earth.htm . Do you still believe like the 18th century European colonialists that the age of the earth is around 6000 yrs. If so, then we are dealing with Frankestein science and thus let’s end the discussion.”
Dude did I ever the say the earth was 6000 yrs old? No. I tried figuring out how these people got this number and my results showed came out different. Besides only certain Christian sects believe in this. I’m a Lutheran and the Lutheran, along with the Catholic and Anglican Churches do not preach this. In fact in Catholicism people are allowed to believe in Evolution. Also there are Christian theologians out there who believe in theistic-evolution and the day-old age theory.
“Carbon-dating and other scientific methods have proven that the age of the earth is 4.2-4.5 billion yrs.”
Silenzer I never heard of any scientist stating the earth is 4.2-4.5 billion yrs old and as far as I know the earth’s age is still an open question. In fact I took Human Biology and Earth Biology while in College and my Professors never said anything about the earth being 4.2-4.5 billion years old and they did teach evolution.
January 10th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Dude did I ever the say the earth was 6000 yrs old? No. I tried figuring out how these people got this number and my results showed came out different. Besides only certain Christian sects believe in this. I’m a Lutheran and the Lutheran, along with the Catholic and Anglican Churches do not preach this. the response of one fundie to the undie.
OH, there, now we have a problem.One fundie is telling me that the earth is only 6000 and odd years old and screaming at me sayong earth is not that old.There is another undie saying she does not believe that the earth is 6000 years old! Let us have an erudite discussion between undies and fundies about evolution and age of earth.Silence please let us hear them slug it out.
January 10th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Evolution is just a theory, which means it has to be proven through scientific experimentation. As for science it existed before the theory of evolution and is more reliable then evolution, which has many flaws. I do believe science supports the theory everything was created by a divine mind and as Antony Flew, former atheist turned deist, philosopher and author of several books, including There is a God states go where the evidence leads. I think Flew’s suggestion is a good idea.
Before you try to argue with me about the Bible, I will first say there are thousands and thousands of archaeological and historical evidence out there that support many events that occurred in the Bible. But I hope I am not contradicting myself by stating this does not prove the Bible is divine, that is something the individual must come to their own conclusion.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:53 am
there we are , you have a doubt! Just because there are hundreds of sites to prove historicity of the biblical record, does not prove the divinity of Bible! True indeed.Divinity is now purely individualistic.My my.Now bible and divinity of it is purely subjective matter for an individual to appreciate or not!
Dear Marie you mean what you have written? If yes it’s good.Religion is purely a personal affair and has no spiritual or political role.
Now that you have agreed to above i have some more points to clarify.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Marie says: Silenzer I never heard of any scientist stating the earth is 4.2-4.5 billion yrs old …..>> First, develop the honesty to accept that according to Bible the earth is not more than 6000 yrs old. The PROOF IS HERE http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/creation/biblical_age_earth.htm
Secondly, here is the list of scientists who say that the age of the earth is more than 6000 yrs old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth). Currently, it is estimated to be between 4.2-4.55 billion yrs. If you cannot accept scientific facts, then that should be the end of discussion.