Ali Sina

Ali Sina is the author of Understanding Muhammad and Muslims.

84 Responses

  1. Steve says:

    Phoenix
    “Your comment could only refute the claim that no scientist accepts Evolution. Since no one made that claim, your argument is therefore completely useless, not to mention fallacious (straw man and argumentum ad populum).” Okay at least 99.9% of scientists accept evolution (and it is even higher among biologists). But this isn’t good enough for you. By the way are you also a skeptic of creationism/intelligent design? It should only be fair you are equally as skeptical as to that as you are to the evolution. Yet I have not heard any skeptical word of you about ID why is that? For example you can start with this. What is your answer to this criticism of ID? “The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design “and other claims of supernaturalintervention in the origin of life” are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own”.

    And yes evolution is a scientific fact where you are getting confused is in confusing the fact of evolution with the THEORIES about how it happened. See this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory

    Quote
    “The general sense of change over time.
    All life forms have descended with modifications from ancestors in a process of common descent.
    The cause or mechanisms of these process of change, that are examined and explained by evolutionary theories.
    Thomson remarks: “Change over time is a fact, and descent from common ancestors is based on such unassailable logic that we act as though it is a fact. Natural selection provides the outline of an explanatory theory”

    “Biologists consider it to be a scientific fact that evolution has occurred in that modern organisms differ from past forms, and evolution is still occurring with discernible differences between organisms and their descendants. There is such strong quantitative support for the second that scientists regard common descent as being as factual as the understanding that in the Solar System the Earth orbits the Sun, although the examination of the fundamentals of these processes is still in progress. There are several theories about the mechanisms of evolution, and there are still active debates about specific mechanisms.”

    So are you skeptical of all 3 or just number 3? Because 1 and 2 are scientific facts established beyond any doubt. Being skeptical” of these facts is just nonsensical. Unless you believe the creator designed/created all living things to look like they have evolved and share a common ancestor when in fact he created them from scratch or perhaps satan planted the fossils and the bones and the DNA evidence to fool us? Nice try but it’s not working evolution is fact stop talking nonsense.

  2. Phoenix says:

    Steve,

    //That’s funny because there are actually more “evolutionist” scientists with my name, than all of the scientists who believe in creationism.//

    My link disproves a very common claim Evolutionists make; which is that no true scientist rejects Evolution.

    Your comment could only refute the claim that no scientist accepts Evolution. Since no one made that claim, your argument is therefore completely useless, not to mention fallacious (straw man and argumentum ad populum).

    But, let Ali Sina answer for himself.

  3. Phoenix says:

    Ali Sina,

    I don’t have time to get through your videos right now but I will soon. I also hope you can keep an open mind and entertain the possibility that Evolution could be false. In other words…doubt. I too will entertain the notion that Evolution might be correct.

    First, I asked for empirical proof of Evolution, you provide a documentary with video simulation instead. Why is a video simulation superior to the scientific method and why is Evolution exempted from being subjected to rigorous laboratory experiments?

    Secondly, you have poisoned the well by labeling all critics of Evolution as being religiously indoctrinated, when in fact religion is not the yardstick used to measure Evolution claims but the rules of empiricism.

    Thirdly, please do not direct me to another clip because I suspect you do not have access to any actual scientific data which proves all the phyla was produced by a single progenitor or the source for the information increase that produced simultaneously the extensive complexity of life.

    Lastly, to avoid any equivocation, let’s define the terms and criteria for Evolution claims:

    -They must meet the standards for Scientific Data and Empirical Evidence.

    – Scientific data is defined as information collected using specific methods for a specific purpose of studying or analyzing. Data collected in a lab experiment done under controlled conditions is an example of scientific data.

    -Empirical evidence, also known as sense experience, is a collective term for the knowledge or source of knowledge acquired by means of the senses, particularly by observation and experimentation.

    Feel free to provide your own definitions if mine don’t suffice. Evolution is a material claim and therefore subjected to material, objective, empirical, replicable, experimental tests which is falsifiable but not falsified.

  4. Steve says:

    traeh

    The technology you are using now is thanks to science. The whole civilisation is thanks to science and human intelligence/reason. Our “manipulation” of the natural world is how it is possible that we invented technologies that mean we don’t have to live in a state of nature and can devote time and energy to thinking about metaphysical and “spiritual” issues and questions. You for some reason though have a very poor opinion of the scientific method which makes all this possible in the first place.

    “A sociopath can over time develop an ever fuller and more complete power to manipulate people, but that is not the same thing as an ever fuller and more complete knowledge of what human beings truly are.” Science is working on it. The more we understand about genetics, psychology, neuroscience etc the more we understand how the mind functions. Funnily enough it is the religious people who tend to have very little of the so called free will. In the case of religions/cults the thoughts of the “leader” become the thoughts of the followers, in a cause-and-effect process. The thoughts of the followers are the thoughts of the leader. The followers don’t have their own thoughts. They get their thoughts channelled directly from somebody else with no thinking in between. The followers might believe that they are thinking for themselves, but they are not. It is an illusion.

  5. traeh says:

    Steve,

    In a previous post, I said, “To be clear, I don’t agree with “intelligent design. I think evolution happened, but that it happened through eons of interaction between the earth and the spiritual world.”

    You, Steve, replied, “Right but this belief is not Needed to understand evolution for the same reason that believing demons cause earthquakes is not needed to understanding plate tectonics.”

    No, what I am talking about is not even remotely the same thing as saying that demons cause earthquakes. I am saying that mind and mind-like qualities are objective realities in the world (not just in the human mind), and that they need to be considered and investigated in order to fully understand the objective world. Science entirely excludes the non-physical “interior” of physical things.

    You are confusing the ability to create working technology with the ability to achieve objective knowledge. “Science” today usually is guilty of the very same confusion, so in that sense, you are correct about what “science” is, Steve. But if that definition is wrong, and if “science” properly so-called is in fact a striving for ever more complete, objective, knowledge, then you are wrong. Today, “science” has been confused with power, technology, and the exclusively quantitative approaches that serve power and technology.

    A sociopath can treat human beings as mere things that exist entirely to be manipulated, and can manipulate those “things” sometimes with great success. But human beings, from the point of view of objective knowledge, are not just manipulable things. Objectively speaking, neither is nature just a manipulable, quantifiable thing (except for those who are blind to its other properties). Yet that utilitarian, manipulative approach is almost exclusively how “science” today conceives of nature. That sort of “sociopathic” approach to the mineral world is not so terribly wrong, insofar as minerals are the part of nature that most closely approximates to mere “thingness.” But even minerals, objectively speaking, are more than that. And beyond the mineral world, the higher one ascends (plant, animal, human), the more reminiscent of a sociopath does today’s “science” become in how it imagines the world.

    You are right in a sort of pathological sense. “Science” does not need to know anything about the inside of the outer world in order to strive to manipulate it and control it. But then again, that approach can destroy itself and has its limits: blindness to nature’s inside has had and will in future have some destructive consequences on many levels: environmental, psychological, and spiritual.

    You are also right, Steve, in the sense that a striving for full knowledge is not necessary to manipulate animals: anyone with a whip or far more advanced technical means can manipulate them, and with mathematical and technical progress, the manipulation can become increasingly powerful. But don’t confuse power with true science, namely the quest for ever fuller and more complete objective understanding of the animal’s whole being. A sociopath can over time develop an ever fuller and more complete power to manipulate people, but that is not the same thing as an ever fuller and more complete knowledge of what human beings truly are. The same goes for the natural world.

    In any case, Steve, in your answers you repeatedly take for granted the very proposition that is being disputed.

    Let’s just leave it then, and agree to disagree for now.

  6. Steve says:

    +traeh
    ” If you want, you can claim that “science” — “knowledge” — should concern itself only with material realities, but to me that is a snare and a delusion.” You have a misunderstanding I think here about science, science is not a metaphysical position nor is it concerned with making statements about the existence or otherwise of gods, souls, spiritual forces and so on. Science is just the method as to understanding how the natural world works that is all. That is why the existence of gods, souls and other spiritual entities are not invoked in a scientific study. It is not because science is inherently materialistic or anti spiritual it is simple because these things are not relevant and not needed to be able to do science.

    “I think,” and start saying “my brain thinks.” I don’t agree with that it is the mind that thinks and not the brain. This is my view of the mind if you are interested. http://www.informationphilosopher.com/problems/mind_body/

    “Your death, from a purely materialist view, is no more important than the collapse of an empty house of cards, since you contain no more real “consciousness” than a house of cards. “You” strictly speaking don’t exist and are just a bunch of chemicals interacting.” Yes your death arguably is the most irrelevant moment of your life. Death is nothing so it’s not important and shouldn’t be important to people.

    “To be clear, I don’t agree with “intelligent design.” I think evolution happened, but that it happened through eons of interaction between the earth and the spiritual world.” Right but this belief is not Needed to understand evolution for the same reason that believing demons cause earthquakes is not needed to understanding plate tectonics.

  7. traeh says:

    To be clear, I don’t agree with “intelligent design.” I think evolution happened, but that it happened through eons of interaction between the earth and the spiritual world.

  8. traeh says:

    Steve, in any case, I differ with your definition of “science.” Nor do I think spirituality must necessarily be only a matter of “beliefs.” You want to treat science as dealing with objective “fact,” and “spirituality” as concerned exclusively with subjective superstition, I suppose. I reject that split.

    It is true that recognizing the distinction between matter and spirit was a magnificent accomplishment of the Scientific Revolution and a critical phase of the evolution of consciousness. A problem with alchemy was that it confusedly mingled spirit and matter. Modern science arose as men increasingly developed the ability to focus exclusively on matter. One can see this in the scientific effort over centuries to distinguish “primary” qualities from “secondary” qualities — those of scientific mind said the primary qualities of an object were objective and real. The secondary qualities — for example colors, smells, tastes — were thought to be purely subjective and to exist only in consciousness. Behind the subjective colors, the reality was particles, or waves. Over time, more and more perceptual qualities were categorized as secondary and “subjective,” until often the only quality deemed objective was quantity.

    Ultimately, the division between “secondary” and “primary” is actually an error, but it shows how for centuries scholars were putting great effort in learning what the alchemists did not understand: how to distinguish matter from consciousness.

    The long effort to distinguish “subjective” from “objective” that defined classical science reveals also that the Scientific Revolution was bound up with the coming to full consciousness of the “I”, the individual, which previously had been relatively merged with the environment. Prior to the Scientific Revolution, the distinction between subjective and objective was not made, or made in very dim and confused fashion. The further back you go in history, the more is consciousness merged with nature, so the individual more or less disappears into the collective and into nature. Over millennia, human beings gradually emerged as individuals from the natural background, and the Scientific Revolution, which sought to draw an absolute line between self and world, subjective and objective, was thus a climactic stage and a tremendous accomplishment in the evolution of consciousness and the realization of the free individual distinguished from the environment.

    But having learned over decades and centuries to focus ever more exclusively on matter, all awareness of non-physical realities increasingly vanished. If you focus intensely enough on something, everything else ceases to exist for you. Imagine the process happening not just with one individual meditating for a few minutes somewhere on some object. Imagine instead that whole societies sought over the course of decades and centuries to focus ever more exclusively on matter alone, to learn to distinguish matter from non-physical realities. That is what the West began doing in a new way beginning around the fifteenth century and reaching a kind of climax around 1900, after which point the pendulum began to swing slowly back toward an awareness of spirit.

    There was an upside (new awareness of the individual and of matter) and a downside (loss of awareness of spirit) to those four or five centuries. European scientists led the way, but the consciousness of whole societies, and indeed of the whole world, was affected over time. And all sense was lost that, while matter is not spirit, it is derived from spirit, by a sort of coagulation.

    My problem with your definition of “science” is not that it focuses exclusively on matter, or uses certain methods for matter that would of course not be appropriate for investigating spiritual worlds. Of course very different methods of investigation are needed for spiritual and physical realms. Not only that, but the science of matter, though it gives a very distorted overall picture of the world, is far more developed than the science of spirit. My problem is that along with a science of matter, many scientists bring a philosophical materialism which they import into their theories. This reduces humanity, history, and evolution to mere physical processes. The “soul” is nothing but an illusory “ghost in the machine.” Everything but the mechanical and material is nothing but superstition irrelevant to the quest for knowledge.

    In that view, human beings become essentially nothing more than meat arising largely from meaningless accidental events. The “I” becomes an illusion produced by electro-chemical reactions in the brain. When your body dies, your “I” flickers out, since you are your body only. Your sense that you have any free will is illusory. Since your “I” is an illusion, and “consciousness,” strictly speaking, does not really exist (Daniel Dennett) if you were honest you would stop using the expression “I think,” and start saying “my brain thinks.” Your death, from a purely materialist view, is no more important than the collapse of an empty house of cards, since you contain no more real “consciousness” than a house of cards. “You” strictly speaking don’t exist and are just a bunch of chemicals interacting.

    If we were in fact only meat machines, well, one would have to simply accept that. That is what some scientists today do. In my own experience (not belief), we are not just meat machines. Spirit is a reality that can be investigated. It is a reality that underlies all form, including the forms of species. If you want, you can claim that “science” — “knowledge” — should concern itself only with material realities, but to me that is a snare and a delusion.

  9. Ron says:

    Scientists a century ago believed the smallest single living cell was a simple life form. The theory developed that perhaps lightning struck a pond of water, causing several molecules to combine in a random way, which by chance resulted in a living cell. The cell then divided and evolved into higher life forms.

    This view is now proven to be immature to the degree of being ridiculous. The most modern laboratory is unable to create a living cell. In fact, scientists have been unable to create a single left-hand protein molecule as found in all animals.

    The Theory of Evolution claims that organic life was created from inorganic matter. That is impossible. The top scientists in the world with unlimited laboratory resources cannot change inorganic matter into a single organic living cell.

    The smallest living cell has the complexity of a Boeing 747 jumbo jet airplane. The components of the smallest living cell have the obvious arrangement showing intelligent design, just as the Boeing 747 did not appear from random parts stacked near each other in a junk yard. The minimal cell contains more than 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.

    The smallest single-cell creature has millions of atoms forming millions of molecules that must each be arranged in an exact pattern to provide the required functions.

    The cell has an energy-producing system, a protective housing, a security system to let molecules into and out of the housing, a reproductive system, and a central control system. This complexity required an intelligent design. It is much too complex to happen by chance.

  10. Ron says:

    The Archaeopteryx fossil was herald by evolutionists as a significant transitional missing link. The fossil was discovered in a limestone quarry in southern Germany in 1861 and has been debated ever since.

    The dinosaur creature appears to be a reptile with bird characteristics of wings and feathers. It had the skeleton of a small dinosaur with a tail, fingers with claws on the leading edge of the wing, and teeth in the jaws.

    The owners of the property discovered six fossils of which only two had feathers. This inconsistency smells of fraud from the beginning. Upon close examination the feathers appear to be identical to modern chicken feathers. Click the picture to see an enlargement.

    The Archaeopteryx fossils with feathers have now been declared forgeries by scientists. “Allegedly, thin layers of cement were spread on two fossils of a chicken-size dinosaur, called Compsognathus. Bird feathers were then imprinted into the wet cement” according to Dr. Walt Brown

    This example would not have proven evolution even if the feathers had not been forgeries. Finding a few species with characteristics similar to two other species does not prove a link. There should be millions or billions of transitional links if evolution were true, not simply a few

  11. Ron says:

    The “Living Fossil” Fish Proves Evolution is Wrong

    The Coelacanth fish was touted to be a transitional form with half-formed legs and primitive lungs, ready to transition onto land. This myth was exploded in December, 1938 when a live Coelacanth was caught in a fisherman’s net off the eastern coast of South Africa. It is now known that the natives of the Comoro Islands had been catching and eating the fish for years.

    It did not have half-formed legs or primitive lungs. It was simply a regular fish that people thought was extinct. Evolutionist claimed the 350 million-year-old Coelacanth evolved into animals with legs, feet, and lungs

    This not the case. We now see that the fish recently caught is exactly like the 350 million-year-old fossil. It did not evolve at all.

    The Coelacanth is a star witness against the false theory of evolution. After 350 million years, the fish still doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

  12. Steve says:

    +traeh
    Hello, you asked “Steve, do you think everything is matter?” No, also I don’t believe there is anything other the physical world/reality. Where I disagree with the materialists is that they say the mind is the brain this is not entirely true. The mind is the information that is being processed by the brain. A person thinking of a triangle doesn’t have a actual triangle in their brain for instance. The information/mind is the software contained in the hardware (brain) that tells this body what to do. But I will repeat I don’t believe in magical souls or anything other than the physical world.

  13. traeh says:

    Steve, do you think everything is matter?

  14. Steve says:

    +traeh
    “That doesn’t mean one must accept Darwin’s view of evolution as adequate. The problem with Darwin’s view of evolution is that it is exclusively materialist in its causes. Anyone who is fully conscious of consciousness cannot accept a purely materialistic form of evolution. My comment below presents an outline of Steiner’s evolutionary paradigm, which seeks to take account of both matter and spirit.” Trash understand that science is concerned with how things work and the natural world works and making predictions and producing models of the natural world that work and is confirmed by evidence. It is not concerned with metaphysical or religious or spiritual beliefs. So for instance believing that a God or consciousness or whatever is behind the evolution is not relevant and certainly not needed to do the science. For the same reason that believing demons cause earthquakes is not relevant to understanding plate tectonics.

  15. Steve says:

    +Phoenix

    “Why do you think there are ZERO experimental laboratory studies proving Evolution. ” Apart from the thousands of pieces of evidence from different fields that prove and keep proving the theory of evolution? Plus the fact that creationism is not a science and makes NO PREDICTIONS and therefore cannot even be mentioned in a discussion about biology and science.
    “There is actually a growing number of scientists dissenting from Darwinism. See link:” That’s funny because there are actually more “evolutionist” scientists with my name, than all of the scientists who believe in creationism.

  16. The following 2 hours long video is a must see for any person who wants to engage in any debate on evolution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYBRbCLI4zU

  17. traeh says:

    Evolution is visible through the rock record. The deeper you go, the more primitive the creatures. That doesn’t mean one must accept Darwin’s view of evolution as adequate. The problem with Darwin’s view of evolution is that it is exclusively materialist in its causes. Anyone who is fully conscious of consciousness cannot accept a purely materialistic form of evolution. My comment below presents an outline of Steiner’s evolutionary paradigm, which seeks to take account of both matter and spirit.

  18. traeh says:

    Hi Ali Sina,

    Yes, Steiner was not a creationist. His teaching was about the evolution of consciousness. He saw the evolution of species differently than Darwin saw it, though he did not deny that Darwin provided part of the truth.

    For Steiner, two things in the evolution of species need to be put together to understand evolution.

    1) Human beings are the only unspecialized, universal beings alive on earth. All other creatures are heavily specialized. A cow is great at digesting grass. A lion is great at catching, killing and digesting flesh. A bird is great at flying. Human anatomy accommodates full self-consciousness and universal mind, and thus can develop instruments to do all the specialized things that animals do.

    2) Like man, the beginning of evolution also had to be universal and unspecialized, in order to give rise to all the various specialized forms.

    If 1) and 2) are correct, it means that in some sense the human being is both the alpha and omega of evolution: The human being is universal. The beginning of evolution was also universal. It is as if the human being was in some sense present at the very beginning of evolution, and the specialized animals in some sense branched out from the universal human being.

    How can that be? Steiner explains it somewhat like this: Matter gradually condensed out of spirit over incredibly long eons, somewhat as ice forms in water. Matter can also be looked at as a sort of corpse of spiritual beings, something in a sense gradually sloughed off by the spiritual world. As matter gradually became increasingly material over unimaginably long time spans, spiritual beings descended into material existence, some “too” quickly, and thus became too specialized to a particular material niche. Animals change but little for millions of years, because they became “too” material. The world of plants descended first, then the various animals at various stages descended, and man appears last in the fossil record. Man went through all the earlier stages of evolution, but without descending into actual fixed, physical form — he went through a spiritual plant stage, he went through a spiritual animal stage, and only actually descended into physical form when an anatomical form had finally been developed that could accommodate universal unspecialized consciousness, an anatomical form that would not dominate that consciousness by instincts, reflexes, and specialization. The universal character of man allows continued evolution and change.

    Consequently, Steiner says the animal kingdom represents all the various aspects of man’s being, spread out in nature. The human being balances three anatomical systems whereas in the higher animals only one of those three basic physiological systems dominates the whole anatomy.

    Thus in the human being there is 1) the head-nerves-senses system, centered in the head but radiating, like the other two systems, through the whole organism; 2) the rhythmic heart-lungs system, centered in the chest; and 3) the metabolic-limb system, centered in the abdomen. By contrast, the higher animals tend to be dominated by a particular system. The cow is in a way all stomach — it has a four-chambered stomach, and the metabolic-limb system dominates the other two systems in the cow, affecting the whole style of the creature, right down to the look in its eyes. The twittering and hyper alert bird, on the other hand, is in a sense all head. The head/nerves/senses system dominates the other two systems in the bird. And in the lion, the rhythmic heart-lungs system dominates the other two systems. At least two scientists — Wolfgang Schad at the University of Witten-Herdecke, and Martin Lockley at the University of Colorado — have developed this paradigm in detail. Schad looked at mammals in this light, and Lockley at dinosaurs.

    The reason human consciousness escapes domination by bodily processes is that in human anatomy the three systems check and balance each other — somewhat as the three branches of the US government hold each other in check and thus permit some freedom for citizens. Steiner insisted, against the established anatomical science of his time, that human anatomy was not centralized, did not have a single center, but rather three. Eventually he was asked to give lectures to a group of young physicians, and working together with an MD, he developed a form of holistic medicine that takes into account the threefold human being. The threefold character of social order — economy, polity, cutlure — arises because of the threefold being of man: thought, feeling, will (corresponding to the threefold anatomy just described).

  19. @Phoenix,

    Please be wary of scientists that are primarily religious. The views of such scientists is tainted by their religious indoctrination.

    Please watch this which explains when Darwin could not at his time.

  20. Phoenix says:

    //I am not a creationist. I have been always an evolutionist and see no reason to question it. More discoveries are coming to light that prove evolution and explain even things that were not known at Darwin’s time.//

    Ali Sina please do not fall into this fallacious false dichotomy trap of either creationism is true or evolution. Evolution is NOT science, if there is any scientific evidence and empirical observations in that pathetic theory then share it. Do not confuse actual Biology with Evolution, the two are mutually exclusive. In fact, Evolution is parasitic on modern Biology.

    Secondly, why don’t you question Evolution? What makes this vaunted “science” so holy that no Evolution skeptic may doubt its claims? They do not even allow Evolution doubters to publish any material or instruct. And please do not claim “scientific consensus” because that is an appeal to authority and a fallacious one at that since there are no actual empirical evidence for its support except mountains of story telling.
    Why do you think there are ZERO experimental laboratory studies proving Evolution.

    There is actually a growing number of scientists dissenting from Darwinism. See link:

    Ranks of Scientists Doubting Darwin’s Theory on the Rise

  21. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Hi Ali Sina,

    You wrote “Evolution is a proven and established science. Evolution does not deny the existence of God or His role in the Universe. But make us reevaluate our understanding of God and how He operates.”

    If possible could you please elaborate your thoughts on how evolution as established science helps us in understanding God and how he operates. Actually i have little understanding on this side of the puzzle and will be grateful for opening this up for me(us)

    Thanks and Regards

    Rajeev

  22. Ali Sina says:

    @ traeh

    oops. You write reincarnation and I read creation. So I wrote this comment based on a misunderstanding. But sine I wrote it I let is stand.

    I am not a creationist. I have been always an evolutionist and see no reason to question it. More discoveries are coming to light that prove evolution and explain even things that were not known at Darwin’s time.
    I also do not believe in everything written in the Bible. Perhaps a Marcionite Christian comes close to my way of thinking.
    In my view the message of God must be in harmony with reason. I am not suggesting that it should be demonstrated by science. Science deals with material objects. It is not the right tool to measure spiritual realities. Just as you don’t measure temperature with measuring tape you can’t quantify spiritual realities with science. Spiritual world is a world of consciousness and hence the only way to discover it is through consciousness. Quantum physics deals with consciousness and therefore it is probably the science of the spiritual world.
    Spiritual realities should not be contrary to established science. Evolution is a proven and established science. Evolution does not deny the existence of God or His role in the Universe. But make us reevaluate our understanding of God and how He operates.
    I have almost an unfailing method to find the truth of anything. I pay attention what Muhammad said in that regard and I conclude that the reverse must be the truth.
    Muhammad claimed that God created the world by fiat. To give credit to him he plagiarized this from the OT. That does not seem to be the case at all. God operates through His creatures. The most obvious is human society. Despite Christians 2000-year-old expectation that God will soon intervene in the world supernaturally, God has been intervening in the world through us and specially through those who accept his Lordship forever. Every act of love you show to another human being or an animal is a work of God. It is He who is doing all these good deeds, while choosing those of us who believe in Him and love Him to do His bidding
    This simple principle holds in all levels of existence. God is at work all the time. He operates through other souls to run His world. We are God’s hands and operatives in this world.

  23. traeh says:

    Hello Ali Sina,
    I have just recently been looking at your site after having not been here for quite a while.

    What a pilgrimage you have been on. I wonder if I have it right.
    First you were a Muslim.
    Next your open-mindedness led you to become an atheist.
    Later your experience and reason led you to conclude there is a spiritual world underlying the physical one.
    Still later you became a Christian reincarnationist.
    All of this was based on use of your common sense, not faith.

    I’m sure that oversimplifies your trajectory and gets part of it wrong, but anyway I think it’s remarkable. Like so many others, I have always enjoyed your writing and way of thinking. Very unique. Because of where you have arrived at this point, I feel a bit obligated to say something to you about another spiritual thinker, though he might not be for you, in which case there is no need to read the whole of what follows.

    In some ways your position reminds me of Rudolf Steiner’s, though I’m sure you would disagree with at least some of Steiner (1861-1925). Steiner tried to create a science of the spirit between 1900 and 1925. He became a Christian reincarnationist. He said that there slumber within every human being invisible organs we can learn to awaken and thereby come to know higher worlds.

    As a university student, he attended what was then sort of the equivalent of MIT in Vienna, so he was well educated in the sciences of the time, but also in philosophy, and got a Ph.D. in that subject from the University of Rostock. He had been having spiritual experiences from the age of childhood, and early on was driven by the task of reconciling the materialistic science of his time with his spiritual experience. His first real happiness, he says, was discovering a book of geometry and mathematics as a child, because it was something he considered purely spiritual, something that confirmed his spiritual experiences and suggested a direction by which he could learn to understand and communicate those experiences. Around the age of 16, he began studying Kant, particularly Kant’s epistemology, because Steiner was determined to ground spiritual experiences in the most rigorous foundations possible.

    He soon developed his own epistemology and disagreed with Kant’s. By his 20s, he had been invited to edit the scientific works of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who had developed a phenomenological approach to science that sought to avoid imposing abstract theories and instead systematically arranged, re-arranged, and ordered experiences until gradually insight emerged as a higher form of direct experience within experience. This matched Steiner’s own view, which was that thinking did not have to be a kind of abstraction, but could become a higher experience illuminating perception.

    He felt that higher form of experience as a layer of the real spiritual world of living, creative spiritual beings. In Kant, thinking had been a subjective construction, the order of space and time were in some sense not objective in Kant’s view, but were simply a subjective order the mind had to impose if there was to be any kind of consciousness of a world at all. Steiner rejected that subjectivism and argued that living ideas are a spiritual part of the world itself: he arrived at a sort of objective idealism, mediated by the human mind. It was not however the same thing as Platonism, or even Plotinism. For Steiner, the objective ideas were actually spiritual processes and activities; and the process of thinking was much more important to Steiner than the particular thoughts that fell like a fixed sediment out of the fluid thinking process. That in particular is where he differed from Hegel, who thought more in terms of particular objective Ideas.

    Steiner’s main philosophical work is The Philosophy of Freedom, also translated as The Philosophy of Spiritual Activity. Before that he wrote An Epistemology Implicit in Goethe’s Worldview, and also a Ph.D. thesis, Truth and Science. These three form the purely intellectual basis for his very different later work where he becomes a sort of Christian shaman who journeys in the spiritual worlds and attempts to bring science and philosophy with him into those worlds. Steiner wrote and lectured on many subjects, and his collected works amount to some 350 volumes.

    In the higher spiritual worlds Steiner visited, theories dissolve and reform as mobile living realities and spiritual beings. There are many dozens of volumes of his reports of his experiences of spiritual beings, the various layers of the spiritual world, how they all function and interact, the whole evolution of consciousness, and some of it sounds bizarre and wrong, and no doubt some of it is. But some portion of it is genuine, new, objective knowledge.

    Furthermore, Steiner hinted that in addition to the level of “right or wrong” in his reports of the spiritual world, there was another level, a level of spiritual beings penetrating some of the concepts and words, spiritual beings that may or may not be “correct” or “incorrect,” but in any case simply ARE. Just as a work of art is not necessarily either “accurate” or “inaccurate” ABOUT something else — just as a work of art exists in itself and is not necessarily ABOUT anything outside itself (for example, much of music), something similar is sometimes happening with Steiner’s reports of spiritual worlds. As the physical chemist and spiritual philosopher Georg Kühlewind put it, if one takes Steiner’s teachings as just true or false “information,” one is misreading it.

    Yet Steiner is not just valuable in that his thoughts sometimes mysteriously convey an awareness of spiritual beings in transformation: he was a serious thinker, too. His Philosophy of Spiritual Activity, and his other early purely philosophical works, are not shamanic journeys like many of his later works. The purely philosophical works rather give the epistemological basis and theoretical defense, one could say, for his later shamanic journeys.

    I would say that Steiner’s method was something like this. He would learn and think as much as possible in normal consciousness, then he would take the ideas and theories he had learned, into the spiritual world. Then spiritual beings would work with him on those theories he had brought with him. Together, they sought to shape and fashion — and especially to transform — those theories so that they could become suitable as a sort of clothing for spiritual beings. As I understand it, this entailed a transformation of Aristotelian logic. The spiritual beings seem on the one hand to accept the principle of identity, and the principle of non-contradiction, but not the principle of the excluded middle. Or perhaps the principle of the excluded middle was kept, but the principle of non-contradiction or the principle of identity was dropped. The point is, tailoring of spiritual clothes could not fashion anything very suitable for spiritual beings if more than two of Aristotle’s three logical principles were kept.

    Some of Steiner’s theories are dated now, yet their fabric and shapes have been to some extent fashioned by spiritual beings in concert with Steiner, and thus the way he sometimes presents his spiritual reports, one can, if one is sufficiently attentive to the right passages, perceive spiritual beings moving in the clothing of those theories. Insofar as the theories are dated, one can sense that as clothing they do not perfectly fit the spiritual beings that one nevertheless senses moving within them, or radiating from them. It is as if the fabric of thought was fashioned by spirits, and some of the shapes, too, even if Steiner today would have brought different theoretical materials for the spiritual tailors to work with and transform.

    Nevertheless, in Steiner it is as if at some points the ‘clothing’ is actually skin for spiritual beings, or even becomes the spiritual beings themselves, clothing and spiritual being become one. But a main point here is that one cannot take Steiner over-literally, and he did not intend to be taken over-literally. Concepts and ideas for him were in some respects only indirect ways of suggesting spiritual realities clothed within those concepts and ideas.

    In some ways, one needs to read Steiner more like poetry. And yet he held that it was not just subjective. Imagination, through discipline, could become objectively cognitive. It was somewhere in the middle between the literal and the figurative. It was using the figurative to approach the literal, like approaching an asymptote. Steiner himself once said his theories were not the most important part of his teaching, and that there were often much better theories available. The most important thing, he said, was the “life” — the living spiritual beings — in some of the thinking he presented. There have been hints of this kind of accomplishment in past stages of human history, but Steiner, both in degree and kind, represents a revolution in consciousness, a new level, the first really new level since the scientific revolution.

    Personally, I think what has been attributed to Thomas Aquinas and Aristotle — that they were somewhere between man and angel — can be said likewise of Steiner. I have studied many spiritual teachers and have not thought the same about others. Indeed, I would speculate that Steiner’s last incarnation was Thomas Aquinas, and before that, Aristotle. He is a sort of Christianized, shamanic Aristotle.

    Steiner was a great educator of children. He gave the brilliant lectures that founded Waldorf Education, perhaps the largest non-government K-12 school movement in the world, which seeks to educate not just the intellect, but also feeling and will, the whole human being. One can find a lot of lies about Steiner and Waldorf on the internet, and some of the lies appear — but only appear — to have good scholarly backing. In one case there is a scholarly leftist with his own agenda slandering Steiner. The leftist in question grossly distorts, and selectively omits and exaggerates in his presentations. In other cases there are people who do not want Waldorf Education in the government schools. Ironically, Steiner himself felt the same way, and wanted school and state to be as separate as religion and state. But the government school system in the US has in some places had parents and teachers who demand to import Waldorf Education and set up Waldorf state charter schools, despite Steiner’s views, and then in response enemies crop up who say “don’t bring spirituality and religion and Steiner into public schools,” and some of these propagandists wage a slanderous, 95% false campaign against Steiner. As I say, Steiner himself did not want Waldorf to be a government thing. At the same time, he did want all children to have access, regardless of their financial situation. He wanted every family to have freedom of choice in schooling.

    All of this segways into another vast subject, Steiner’s social thinking. He became very active during the German Revolution at the end of World War I, and wrote a major best seller in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland to promote his idea of the threefold social order. The idea does not fit into left or right very well. In a nutshell, Steiner said that healthy social order means that the three main spheres of society need to be kept relatively separate, so they can check, balance, and correct each other without conflicts of interest. In other words, government, economy, and culture need to be relatively independent of one another. (Culture here means religion, science, art, education, media). Each of the three spheres required a different main guiding value. Steiner said government required democracy, cultural life required individual liberty, and economic life required uncoerced, voluntary, non-statist, cooperation. The State’s only role in Steiner’s view was police, military, and to protect human rights and make laws, including human rights and labor laws within the economy — but the State was not to run or own any part of the economy. His main work in this area is available in English as Toward Social Renewal. He also gave a difficult series of lectures on a new, spiritual economics.

    Steiner also began what may be the earliest form of organic agriculture in the modern European setting.

    He started schools for special needs children (the Camphill movement), and was perhaps the first to refer to them not as “retarded” or “idiots” or the like, but as “special needs.”

    His lectures to doctors started a school of medicine which has physicians practicing in 80 nations.

    Like Aristotle, he produced works of genius in many fields (he was a magnificent architect, see the Goetheanum in Dornach Switzerland, for example), which have led to movements in all those fields, but again, one must imagine a shamanic, somewhat trippy, almost hallucinogenic Aristiotle — but very effective movements nonetheless. And best of all, freedom of spirit was, I think, Steiner’s highest value.

    An brilliant work by a physicist who is a student of Steiner is The Wholeness of Nature, by Henri Bortoft. An brilliant philosophical work by a Steiner student is Owen Barfield’s book, Worlds Apart, which is a fictional dialog between a physicist, a biologist, a linguistic philosopher, a Freudian psychoanalyst, a theologian, a retired Waldorf School teacher, a young man employed at a rocket research station, and a lawyer with philological interests. I would also suggest three works by Steiner himself, to start with. The three works differ greatly from one another: 1) Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and its Attainment 2) Anthroposophy and the Inner Life, 3) The Philosophy of Freedom.

    Steiner might not be for you, but I felt obligated to say something about him, just in case, since he remains not that well-known. Best regards. Traeh

  24. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    Jesus was a great soul and am not afraid to say way to God. Agree, but not only way. Jesus followed in life principals mentioned in Veda to reach to God i.e. Truth, non-violence, Honesty, Brahmacharya (Sexual Continence), Aparigrah (Non Possessiveness), Kshama (Pardon), Dhruti (Courage), Mitahar (Restricted Diet), Aarjav (Humbleness). Any one who takes these principal in life can become super hero like Jesus. These principal are the actual and eternal way to reach the ultimate goal.

  25. Ron says:

    Yes Bible is a book which you have to be afraid of, chiefly because it changes lives for the better.
    That is why it is banned and disliked by atheists, communists, Muslims, anti-Christians and other religions. Bible was banned in Soviet Union , yet now it is the largest selling book over there.

    It was and is banned in China and North Korea yet it is the largest selling book in China and North Korea.
    It is banned in Iran and many parts of the Middle East but the Arabic and Farsi Bibles are being bought in very high numbers. The version which is sold and downloaded the most is KJV around the world.

    It is the only book whose historical prophecies have come true and are still coming true.

    Individuals, nations and politicians have tried to ban it, burn it and defy it but it has stood the test of time.
    The Bible was written over a span of 1500 years, by 40 writers. Unlike other religious writings, the Bible reads as a factual news account of real events, places, people, and dialogue. Historians and archaeologists have repeatedly confirmed its authenticity.

    Using the writers’ own writing styles and personalities, God shows us who he is and what it’s like to know him.
    There is one central message consistently carried by all 40 writers of the Bible: God, who created us all, desires a relationship with us. He calls us to know him and trust him.

    The Old Testament’s accuracy was confirmed by an archaeological discovery in 1947, along today’s West Bank in Israel. “The Dead Sea Scrolls” contained Old Testament scripture dating 1,000 years older than any manuscripts we had. When comparing the manuscripts at hand with these, from 1,000 years earlier, we find agreement 99.5% of the time. And the .5% differences are minor spelling variances and sentence structure that doesn’t change the meaning of the sentence.

    Regarding the New Testament, it is humanity’s most reliable ancient document. We have thousands of copies of the New Testament, all dated closely to the original writing. In fact, we are more sure the New Testament remains as it was originally written by its writers, than we are sure of writings we attribute to Plato, or Aristotle, or Homer’s Iliad.

  26. madfijian says:

    It is obvious from the many posts here that religion is a thorny issue. It is also blindingly obvious that the big 4 faiths of the world Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism are desperately flawed and holy books pertaining to these faiths have clearly been written by ancient idiots and barbaric morons who new nothing about how the world truly ticks scientifically of course. Why the likes of Ron Truth seeker and others cant see this is beyond me. Perhaps it is the very nature of religion that makes people so dogmatic and closed minded that even when confronted with the obvious people still choose to believe bullshit no matter what.
    Only when unobstructed logic is applied to a belief system by a believer can he or she be truly be free from it. If you apply logic with reservations you will never be free from the tyranny of religion. Please mark my words. I never said God. I do not see God as the problem that is if he exits. It is the man made mass stupidity we disguise as religion that is the problem. The sooner this planet is free from it the better. Just reading the posts here confirms my assertion. None of you really know squat other than BS written thousands of years ago by some yogi or some so called learned ones and yet you all talk as if God is your freaking next door neighbor. One word OBTUSE.

  27. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    _________Your own hinduwebsite hinduwebsite says Brahma, the creator god of Hinduism and Hindu Trinity___________

    They do not provide any proof from Veda to prove their argument. Their belief based on Purans. Puran were written by Bop-Dev a Hindu thug on the name of Great sage Ved Vyas. Purans are false book like Quran & Bible but unfortunately most of Hindus are ignorant about this.

    _________You are much better and saintly person than this Brahma who used Vedic poetry to seduce and convince his daughter Saraswati____________

    Again non-Vedic & Poranic stuff written by mad man Bop-Dev on the name Ved Vyas around 2500 years before. They can not prove from Veda their arguments.

    _______-Christ is the way, the truth and life____________

    Who was they way before Christ birth? Way should be universal & eternal and Christ fails in this test.

    For more information visit agniveer.com spend few days there to gain more realistic and concrete knowledge.

  28. Suhail Shah says:

    @Ron I’m feeling pathetic for you gave stupendous references of immorality in hindu religious scriptures like vedas and manusmriti but you, yourself turn a blind eye to your own supposed word of God.The new testament of King James version was completed in 1611 by eighty members of the church of England.There were and still are, no original manuscripts to translate.There are over 8000 manuscripts, with no two alike.King James translators use none of them anyway.Instead they edited previous translations to create a version their king and parliament would approve.So 21st century christians suggest the word of God can be found in a book that was edited in 17th century which attempted to translate 8000 contradictory copies of 4th century scrolls.It is nothing more than unsubstantiated heresy, dogma and historical social control.Bible was not compiled during the life of Jesus neither it was counter signed by Jesus.It is filled with contradictions, scientific errors, absurdities, verses of vengeance, hatred and voilence.Jesus is compassionate human being but bible is a lethal book in the words of George Bernard Shaw it’s the most dangerous book on earth.

  29. Ron says:

    @Ngata,
    Thanks for your kind words, If you search for the truth and find it, it will set you free.
    Watch this Hindu Brahman Doctor who became a Christian surprisingly.

  30. Ron says:

    Yes the Old Testament does mention a lot of misdeeds and sins as it tells you the history of man and how sin affected man, social community giving the examples of Jews and the nations around them and its consequences. The gospels tell you of redemption from sins and the path to salvation through Christ.

    The Bible has been the largest bestseller in the whole world since printing presses began. It sells more than all the religious scriptures of all other religions put together.
    The gospels have been the largest translated book in the whole world in all main languages of all countries.
    The Bible and the gospels are in Braille (in many languages), audio, video, and all possible formats.

    This is in spite of what GBS or anyone says. It has sold more than 6 billion copies as such that is more than the sales of all religious books of all the world’s religions and atheism and rationalism put together.

  31. Ron says:

    @Truth Seeker
    Your own hinduwebsite says about this despicable god whom you follow and worship. Please check it out.

    http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/brahma.asp
    Brahma, the creator god of Hinduism and Hindu Trinity, teacher of the Vedas, also called Prajapati, Lord and Father of all beings.

    You are much better and saintly person than this Brahma who used Vedic poetry to seduce and convince his daughter Saraswati to have sex with him.

    According to ancient encyclopedia the below is what is Brahma

    Brahma the Creator

    In the beginning, Brahma sprang from the cosmic golden egg and he then created good & evil and light & dark from his own person. He also created the four types: gods, demons, ancestors, and men (the first being Manu).

    Brahma then made all living creatures upon the earth (although in some myths Brahma’s son Daksa is responsible for this). In the process of creating, perhaps in a moment of distraction, the demons were born from Brahma’s thigh and so he abandoned his own body which then became Night. After Brahma created good gods he abandoned his body once again, which then became Day, hence demons gain the ascendancy at night and gods, the forces of goodness, rule the day.

    Brahma then created ancestors and men, each time again abandoning his body so that they became Dusk and Dawn respectively. This process of creation repeats itself in every aeon. Brahma then appointed Shiva to rule over humanity although in later myths Brahma becomes a servant of Shiva.

    Brahma created the four types: gods, demons, ancestors, and men.

    Brahma had several wives, the most important being his daughter Sarasvati who, after the Creation, bore Brahma the four Vedas (Holy books of Hinduism), all branches of knowledge, the 36 Raginis and 6 Ragas of music, ideas such as Memory and Victory, yogas, religious acts, speech, Sanskrit, and the various units of measurement and time.

    http://www.ancient.eu/Brahma/

    The surprising thing is that gods of Hinduism and Vedic Hinduism and Vedas have so much of bullshit, immorality, sexual debauchery and contradictions that you have to throw the whole thing out even if there is a sprinkling of sensibility.

    Clinging to it as if it is the whole truth and pure is an insult to common sense, intelligence and morality.

    There is a possibility that Vedas initially pointed to the real god (and to his son Christ through whom we receive salvation and redemption) but have been later corrupted. But I would always suggest reach out to Christ directly rather than sieve through filth and go the wrong way. Christ does answer

    Christ is the way, the truth and life. Christ is pure and sinless. He loves you and try reaching out to Him and He will answer you.

  32. Suhail Shah says:

    Why islam only Mr. Ali Sina have you read holy bible its filled with pornographic verses, absurdities, voilent verses and also ten cases of incests that’s why George Bernard Shaw called it the most dangerous book on earth.Here are some references
    (1) Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her. – Bible : Judges (16) : 1.
    (2) And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. – Bible : Genesis (19) : 33 – 36.
    (3) And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father’s concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve. – Bible : Genesis (35) : 22.
    (4) And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her. – Bible: Genesis (38) : 2.
    (5) And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. – Bible : Genesis (38) : 8 – 9.
    (6) When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. – Bible : Genesis (38) : 15 – 18.
    (7) And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister. And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly. And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee. Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her. – Bible : 2 Samuel (13) : 11 – 14.
    (8) So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel. – Bible : 2 Samuel (16) : 22.
    (9) Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. – Bible : Ezekiel (16) : 28.
    (10) And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. – Bible : Ezekiel (23) : 3.
    (11) And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours, Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses. Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself. Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her. – Bible : Ezekiel (23) : 5 – 8.
    (12) And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms. She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men. Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way, And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion, Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity: And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea. And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them. So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister. Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth. – Bible : Ezekiel (23) : 11 – 21.
    (13) My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God. – Bible: Hosea (4) : 12.
    (14) I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled. – Bible : Hosea (6) : 10.
    (15) Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor. – Bible : Hosea (9) : 1.
    (16) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. – Bible : Genesis (9) : 21.
    (17) And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets? – Bible : 1 Samuel (19) : 24.
    (18) Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! – Bible : 2 Samuel (6) : 20.
    (19) So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt. – Bible : Isaiah (20) : 4.
    (20) And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding, Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house, In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night: And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart. (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house: Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.) So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him, I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows. Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves. For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed. With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks; – Bible : Proverbs (7) : 7 – 22.
    (21) Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. – Bible : Isaiah (13) : 16.
    (22) And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. – Bible : Deuteronomy (22) : 17.
    (23) While the king sitteth at his table, my spikenard sendeth forth the smell thereof. A bundle of myrrh is my well-beloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts. – Bible : Song of Solomon (1) : 12 – 13.
    (24) Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. – Bible : Song of Solomon (4) : 5.
    (25) I am a wall, and my breasts like towers: then was I in his eyes as one that found favour. – Bible : Song of Solomon (8) : 10.
    (26) But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. – Bible : Numbers (31) : 18.
    (27) This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; – Bible : Song of Solomon (7) : 7 – 8.
    (28) And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house. – Bible : 2 Samuel (11) : 4.
    (29) Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. – Bible : Song of Solomon (7) : 3.
    Top 10 Voilent verses of bible :-
    10. 2 Kings 2:23-24
    He [Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys . (NRSV)
    9. Exodus 32:27-29
    Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor .’ “The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers , and he has blessed you this day.”(NIV)
    8. 2 Chronicles 25:12
    The sons of Judah also captured 10,000 alive and brought them to the top of the cliff and threw them down from the top of the cliff, so that they were all dashed to pieces .(NASB)
    7. Judges 12:5-6
    Then the Gileadites took the fords of the Jordan against the Ephraimites. Whenever one of the fugitives of Ephraim said, “Let me go over,” the men of Gilead would say to him, “Are you an Ephraimite?” When he said, “No” they said to him, “Then say Shibboleth” and he said, “Sibboleth,” for he could not pronounce it right. Then they seized him and killed him at the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand of the Ephraimites fell at that time. (NRSV)
    6. 1 Kings 20:28-30
    Then a man of God came and spoke to the king of Israel, and said, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Because the Syrians have said, “The LORD is God of the hills, but He is not God of the valleys ,” therefore I will deliver all this great multitude into your hand, and you shall know that I am the LORD.’” And they encamped opposite each other for seven days.
    So it was that on the seventh day the battle was joined; and the children of Israel killed one hundred thousand foot soldiers of the Syrians in one day. But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; then a wall fell on twenty-seven thousand of the men who were left. (NKJV)
    5. Joshua 8:24-26
    When the Israelite army finished chasing and killing all the men of Ai in the open fields, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai, including men and women , was wiped out that day—12,000 in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until
    everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. (NLT)
    4. Deuteronomy 2:32-34
    Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones ; we left none remaining. (ASV)
    3. Deuteronomy 3:3-6
    So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city . (NASB)
    2. 1 Samuel 15:3,8
    Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys .’ ” … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword .(NIV)
    1. Hosea 13:16
    Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open . (NSVB)
    The great german philosopher Karl Marx rightly said religion is the heart of the heartless world, it is the soul of the soulless world.It is the opium of masses

  33. Ron says:

    Want more proof:

    Read this book which is part of a doctoral thesis written by 13 Indian Scholars (all are Hindu except 1)
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gUJ6112aGZQC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Incest is commonly mentioned in ancient HIndu texts.

    The daughter of one sage Vasishta believed him to be her husband and therefore used to have sex with him. In another story, God Indra had sex with his great grandson’s wife Vapushtma. Other “sages” even married their own daughter.

    Even in the Rig Veda, the sexual converse between Brother and Sister Yam and Yami is mentioned, Yami expressing her desire to unite with her own Brother hinting that sexual relationship between Brothers and Sisters were not uncommon.

  34. Ron says:

    Truth Seeker et al,
    Immorality in Vedas

    Brother and Sister sex is permitted in Vedas and the dialogue between Yam ad Yami is recorded in Rigveda.

    Morality(?) in Vedas.

    If you think vedas as the base of your religion,take the evidence of the morality(?) in your Vaidik Dharma. Following is the translation of the original text in Rigveda taken from ‘Riddles In Hinduism’ by Dr.Babasaheb Ambedkar:-

    As to morality there is hardly any discussion about it in the Rig-Veda. Nor does the Rig-Veda contain elevating examples of moral life. Three illustrations of cases on the other side may well be given:

    First is the conversation between Yama and Yami who were brother and sister.

    “(Yami speaks). I invite my friend to friendship, having come over the vast and desert ocean may Vedhas, after reflecting, place in the earth the offspring (of thee) the father, endowed with excellent qualities.”…..
    The whole transcript can be seen here

    https://shivadharma.wordpress.com/2006/11/23/morality-in-vedas/

    Even an old ancient broken analog clock will show the time correct twice. That doesn’t mean it is to be followed.

    If you are still not convinced there are thousands more references about these in the Vedas.

    We have not yet touched the Manu Smriti which is blatantly racist (casteism) practised even now and even worse than any other social crime practised anywhere on the planet.

  35. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    You said

    “Parwati saw her husband Shiva making love with Madhura, and she became a frog.”

    Oh dear what a absurdity ! How can a woman become frog? You are mad enough like who believe in such nonsense things.

    “Brahma is one of the 3 main gods – Trimurti”

    Where is mentioned this “Trimurti”? I could not find this 20000 Mantra of Veda. On the contrary

    Atharvaveda 13.4.16-21 says

    He is neither two, nor three, nor four, nor five, nor six, nor seven, nor eight, nor nine, nor ten. He is, on contrary, One and Only One. There is no Ishwar except Him. All devatas reside within Him and are controlled by Him. So He alone should be worshipped, none else.

    Yajurveda 40.1: says

    This entire world is embedded within and managed by the One and Only One Ishwar. Never dare do any injustice or desire riches through unjust means. Instead follow the righteous path and enjoy His bliss. After all He alone is source of all bliss!

    Yajurveda 34.53 says (He is unborn and maintaining One single identity always) and Yajurveda 40.8 (He is always uniform, without body, without nerves, without gaps and unchangeable).

  36. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    Ved Mantras describing science matters therein. For example, Yajurved Mantra 3/6 states

    “Ayam Gauhu Swaha Pitram Puraha Prayan Mataram Prishnihi Aakrameet Asadat”.

    Meaning:

    This earth revolves around the Sun in the space and it also rotates on its own axis. Vedas are eternal like God because Vedas emanate from God. Now, according to Vedas, this present creation is about 1 Arab, 96 crores, 8 lakh 53,111 years old. So are the Vedas but as said in Rigveda Mantra 10/191/3 the present creation is same as was the previous one and this process of creation is eternal. So are the Vedas which emanate from eternal God. This all concludes that Vedas are the oldest in this creation also and no other book of science, maths or pertaining to spiritualism is written before Vedas.

    Like the above example of rotation and revolution of earth, the significance of whole present science is mentioned in Vedas. We can see that whatever is happening in the universe, is all according to the Vedas. For example, occurance of six seasons, actions of Sun, moon, process of death, birth, worship, yoga philosophy, atomic energy, agriculture, animal husbandry, knowledge of politics, administration, architecture, solar energy, knowledge of home appliances like mixer, grinder, business rules, about men, women, children, marriage, Brahmacharya, education, clothes etc., etc., i.e., knowledge right from a straw to Brahma is all in Vedas. God is Almighty and has unlimited powers. So through His power He is able to originate the knowledge of Vedas in the heart of four Rishis without pencil, paper, help of mouth or any other worldly assistance.

  37. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    I do not wherefrom you brought this non-Vedic stuff. Whatever so said against Veda or anti Veda. If you have any question regarding Veda please put before me specifically. I will try to answer.

  38. Ron says:

    When you search for the truth and you find that it is against your core beliefs on which you were brought up or indoctrinated by family elders then it is extremely difficult to overcome the shock and you tend to look for all possible reasons why it is not true. Natural impulse is to indulge in ad-hominin attacks.

    This shock happens to a lot of Muslims when they find that Mohamed was a criminal. It happens to a lot of Hindus when they find that Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Kali etc. indulged in immoral, criminal acts of depravity.

    Further more when the rap sheet of the disgusting offences (criminal activities like bestiality, sodomy, rape, murder, incest, racism, casteism, pedophilia, theft etc. as mentioned in the Vedas, Puranas, Mahabharata, Ramayana and other Hindu Scriptures) of each of these so called gods (Krishna, Rama, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, Indra, Agni, Ayappa etc. attributes) are listed then you need to get their mugshots and not idolise nor venerate them.

    If forefathers and ancestors and elders have worshipped them out of ignorance, culture and superstition then it is time that when we know the truth we should be intelligent and bold enough to stop worshipping and stop following these criminal elements masquerading as gods.

    It is not my intention to denigrate Hinduism. Because Vedas are old there fore it is gold and it is true is a foolish argument. The god attributes of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Kali, Ayappa etc are unholy, demonic and immoral and certainly not worthy of worship are proven below but if you need further proof do let me know.
    God could be Alpha and the Omega (as mentioned in the Bible) i.e. AUM/AOM/OM and with Christ (who alone is sinless and holy) as his Son (attribute of God) can be a more justifiable claim.

    Ali Sina found Christ, just as I found Christ and so will you if you are ready to accept the truth and reach out to the one true God and not attach the sinful attributes (gods like Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Kali, Ayappa etc)

    Jesus love you. He lived a sinless life, died and rose again.

  39. Ron says:

    VEDIC GODS HAVING SEX WITH THE SAME WOMAN AND IMPREGNATING HER

    ”Pushan, inspire her who is most auspicious, in whom men may sow seed, who most affectionate. may be devoted to us, and in whom animated by desire we may beget progeny. (The Gandharvas) gave Surya to thee, Agni, with her bridal ornaments ; do thou, Agni, give (us) husbands our wife back again with male offspring. Agni gave the wife back again with life and splendour; may he who is her husband enjoying long life live a hundred years. Soma first obtained the bride;the Gandharva obtained her next ; Agni was thy third husband ; thy fourth (husband) is born of man. Soma gave her to the Gandharva; the Gandharva gave her to Agni ; Agni has given her to me and wealth and sons.” Rig Veda 10.85.37-41, Tr. Wilson

    This is also mentioned in Atharva Veda,

    Atharva Veda 14.2.3-4 She was the wife of Soma first: next the Gandharva was thy lord. Agni was the third husband: now one born of woman is thy fourth. Soma to the Gandharva, and to Agni the Gandharva gave. Now, Agni hath bestowed on me riches and sons and this my bride.

    It is mentioned in Agni Purana,

    Agni Purana 165.19-20 ”The gods first enjoy the women, then the Moon-god, after them the Gandharvas, subsequently the Fire-god, and last of all the mortals; and hence they can never be polluted.” Tr. M.N. Dutt

  40. Ron says:

    Some Hindus proudly promote Vedas as philosophical, free from all vulgarities. But in reality there is no limit for Vulgarity in Vedas. It even promotes sex with animals let alone adultery and pornography. Sex with animals in Hinduism is not a vulgar thing, Ancient Hindu temples like Khajuraho, Ajanta, Ellora clearly depicts men and girls having sex with animals.

    ”As a buffalo (Indra) desired the lusty female born from himself; the mena of the horse he made into the mother of the cow”- Rig Veda 1.121.2, Tr. Geldner.

    Maharshi Yaska mentions a strange story about the birth of Asvins (the twin horsemen). Which is a elaboration of Rig Veda Mandal 10, hymn 17. The story says Saranyu was unwilling to have sex with Vivasvat and ran away but Vivasvat chased her and raped her. Yaska writes,

    Nirukta 12.10 ”Saranyu daughter of Tvastr bore twins, Yama and Yami, to Vivasvat the sun. She having substituted another lady of similar appearance, and having assumed the shape of a mare, ran away. He, Vivasvat, the sun, having also assumed the shape of a horse, pursued her, and joined her. Thence the Asvins were born. Manu was born from the lady of similar appearance.”

  41. Ron says:

    Hindu gods doing bestiality and raping the devotees coming to worship them,.

    Brahma`s bestiality
    Then Brahma began to roam about in the forests. He happened to see a female bear in a bush. Brahma would not leave it. He went straight to the bush. The female bear yielded to Brahma. God Brahma enjoyed with the bear and a human being with the head of a bear was born. He is called Jambu Vandan, the son of Brahma.
    Hindu gods Indra and Agni ) are molesting other people’s wife’s (Ahalya) .

    Shiva sex with Madhura who came to worship him
    Once when Parwati was away, Shiva had sexual inter course with a woman called Madhura, who came to Kailas to worship him. On her return, Parwati saw her husband Shiva making love with Madhura, and she became a frog. When the period of the curse was over after twelve years, the frog took the form of Mandodari who became the wife of Ravana, the ten-headed king of Lanka. The sperm of Shiva which remained dormant in the womb of Mandodari when the was frog began to develop, and finally gave birth to Indrajit. Thus, the so-called son of Ravana-Indrajit of Lanka-was an intelligence son of Shiva.

    Bestiality depictions have also been found at the Khajuraho temple-complex in Hindustan.

    Sources:
    http://drambedkarji.blogspot.ca/2010/08/brahmas-sex-with-daughter-animals.html
    http://www.sikharchives.com/?p=19589
    https://hinduismkisachai.wordpress.com/

  42. Ron says:

    Incest and perpetual lies by Brahma

    On seeing his daughter Padma (Sarasvati), Brahma was very much moved. He looked at the beauty of his daughter. He wooed his daughter and wanted to have intercourse. How could a daughter give consent to one’s own father? Padma refused. Brahma did not give up his desire. He began to quote the Vedas to his daughter to make her realise that there is nothing wrong in enjoying with anyone, anytime, anywhere for the sake of giving birth to a child:

    Mathara Mupathya, susara mupaithe, Puthrartheetha
    Sagamarthi, Napathra loka, nasthee thath.
    Saravam paravo vindu ha, dasmath Puthrar tham
    Matharam suransathee Rahathee.

    This is the Sanskrit sloka Brahma quoted to his daughter. He explained to his daughter, that for the sake of a child one can enjoy with one’s own sister or daughter, as per the authority of the sacred Vedas composed by Brahmin scholar.

    A God whose one head tells lies and other four tell truth!!!!!:

    “Brahma desired Sarasvati and went to her, asking her to stay with him. She, being his daughter, was furious at this and said, ‘Your mouth speaks inauspiciously and so you will always speak in a contrary way.’ From that day, Brahma’s fifth head always spoke evilly and coarsely. Therefore one day when Siva was wandering about with Parvathi and came to see Brahma, Brahma’s four heads praised Siva but the fifth made an evil sound. Siva, displeased with the fifth head, cut it off. The skull remained stuck fast to Siva’s hand, and though he was capable of burning it up, Siva wandered the earth with it for the sake of all people, until he came to Benares.” — Siva Purana, Jnanasamhita 49:65-80.

    How can Hindus knowingly worship gods (not humans) telling lies and committing incest???

  43. Ron says:

    Rape by Shiva

    Once Lord Siva visited to Tarugavanam and meet Birunthai Rishi. At that time Lord Siva saw Rishi’s very beautiful wife. Usually Lord Siva is worst in sexual character. Lord Siva planned to rape Rishi’s wife and in midnight Lord Siva made the voice of cock. Immediately Birunthai Rishi thought that was dawn and he went to River Ganges for bath. In the meantime Lord Siva changed his shape himself as like Birunthai Rishi and entered inside the cottage. Rishi’s wife did not refuse for the sex and Lord Siva enjoyed sex with her.

    Birunthai Rishi confused himself and feel that time must be midnight. Rishi immediately returned to his cottage and saw his wife in raped condition. Rishi identified that was Lord Siva. Rishi got angry about this kind of immoral activity of Lord Siva. Rishi gave Sabam ( the effective spiritual words during the time of anger ). Rishi cried, ” The penis rapes my wife must be destroy immediately.”

    After the sabam of Rishi, The penis of Lord Siva detached from him and come down to the earth as like arrow. The Devas requested Lord Siva’s wife Parvathi to save the earth from the danger of Lord Siva’s penis. Parvathi herself accepted the penis of Lord Siva into her vagina as like lock and key method. Lord Brahma gave base support to the sexual organs that is linga Beetam. Only the sexual organs of Lord Siva and Parvathi is known as Siva Lingam.

    Why do hindus have to worship penis?????

  44. Ron says:

    Gang Rape by Hopeless Hindu Gods and they are punished.
    Lord Brahma, Vishnu & Siva rape Anasuya and are cursed. This is also an origin of the holy Shiv linga as Siva is cursed to be worshipped as the linga (phallus):

    “One day the sage Atri was performing tapas with his wife Anasuya. Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva came and offered him a boon, but Atri remained silent, meditating. Then the three gods went to Anasuya. Siva had his linga in his hand, Vishnu was full of erotic feeling, and Brahma was beside himself with desire, saying to Anasuya, ‘Make love with me or I will die.’ When she heard this coarse speech, Anasuya made no reply, for, although she feared the anger of the gods, she was true to her husband. But they were overcome with delusion, and they raped her by force. Then she became angry and she cursed Siva to be worshipped as a linga, Brahma to be worshipped in the form of a head, and Vishnu to be worshipped as feet, in order to ridicule them all, and she cursed them all to be reborn as her sons. Because of this, Siva was reborn as Durvasas.” — Bhavisya Purana 3:4:17:67-78.

    I am not trying to denigrate Hindus (Jesus loves them also)

    I am just pleading humbly that DO NOT equate this demonic gods of the Hindu Vedas (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna, Rama, kali, ayappa etc)

    Christ alone is the truth, the way and life

  45. Ron says:

    Homosexuality between Hindu gods (Shiva and Vishnu) and Hindu God performing blow jobs (Shiva and Agni)

    Now there is so much of sex involved with this Hindu gods who appear to be sex maniacs.
    Intelligence and logic tells us that we should dump all these Hindu gods.

    Hindu god Shiva’s semen swallowed by Agni (another Hindu god)

    In the Shiva Purana and the Ramayana, the gods fear the outcome of Shiva and Parvati’s “unending embrace,” and interrupt their coitus. Shiva then appears before the gods and declares “now let him step forward who will accept the semen I discharge”. At the prompting of the gods, Agni captures Shiva’s semen in his hands and swallows it.[29] In these stories, Parvati and Shiva condemn Agni’s actions, calling them “wicked” or “improper.”

    Well, there is lots of proof on the internet like here in Wikipedia which again says that this god Ayyappa was born out of the sexual union of Vishnu and Shiva. (this is corroborated by even Sri Sri Ravi Shankar)

    Shiva had sex with Vishnu and out of this homosexual act another supergod Ayappa was born.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_Hindu_mythology
    https://www.facebook.com/SriSriRaviShankar/posts/10151832425787536

  46. Ron says:

    @Vivek ,TruthSeeker

    You forgot to mention the daughters of Lot in the list of misdeeds committed by people in the Bible.

    Also you forgot the mention the Spanish Inquisition in the list of misdeeds by so called Christians.

    Again these and all the misdeeds mentioned in your email are misdeeds of men/women who are not following Christ.

    It has to be understood that Bible gives a narrative history of the fall of humans due to sin. Moreover the list of misdeeds/sins are done by humans who are not gods (attributes ). Nowhere does the Bible or Christ exhort you to worship these humans or venerate them.

    Christ NEVER practiced nor preached these misdeeds and as such He is and remains SINLESS, died and rose again. Christ is the way, the truth and life.

    In dark contrast the gods (attributes) like Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna, Rama, Kali etc did lot of misdeeds/sins and they are BEING WORSHIPPED as gods to venerate and emulate and praise.

    The Bible says that God is the Alpha and Omega ( Revelation 22:13 ) i.e. the beginning and the end and that seems to be the meaning of the word AUM which is shortened/transliterated as AOM or OM..

    If you are detaching this evil despicable gods (attributes) of Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Kali, Krishna, Rama and their derivatives gods/gurus/rishis etc from AUM/OM/AOM and replacing them with a SINLESS and HOLY Christ then you are on the right path.

    The evil done by these hindu gods (not mere men or women) is mind boggling. And more surprising is that hindus still support and worship them.

    I have already posted just a few of them before but don’t mind posting their rapsheet of offences which of hindu gods of the Vedas which is not exhaustive.

  47. Truth Seeker says:

    Atheism

    Atheism basically denies the concept of ‘God’ as given by Semitic religion of Church. However it has no basis to refute the God of Vedas. Perhaps the only 2 objections are:

    a. The word God evokes different emotions due to its more prominent association with an anthropomorphic (human-like) Emperor of world. This can be eliminated by using a different phrase instead of God. Lets call that ‘Source behind all Laws of Nature’.

    b. A second objection is the anathema against the optimistic perception that Laws of Nature are there to help us. But this is only a psychological problem that certain people tend to avoid optimism and yet seek happiness in their own lives indirectly! This pessimism in a very hardcore small group of atheist also emanates from a repulsion against the hype of a merciful forgiving God that is emphasized by Bible.

    But if you suggest that Vedic God does not change His laws a bit, then even this objection is taken care of.

    If atheism be associated with modern scientists, then scientists like Einstein only objected to the Biblical God. They could not explore the Vedic God due to lack of access to such a philosophy. But whatever views Einstein suggested for God was very much in lines of Vedas – an impartial God who does not change his laws and meddle with our personal lives.

    C

  48. Truth Seeker says:

    Aadam & Havva false theory propagated by false books. As per Veda thousands of men & women were created in womb of earth. There is no question of incest as falsely preached by Bible.

  49. Truth Seeker says:

    @Vivek

    Do not compare Veda with Bible. Veda is gold mine. There is no book except Veda which explain profusely eternal existence of Soul, God & Primordial matter. There is no book in world except Veda in which contain no historical things but talk of universal truths. Veda is like sun light before Bible candle light.

  50. vivek p says:

    The following are some sexual relationships mentioned in the bible:
    In Genesis 4:17, Cain has a wife, though there is no account given of where his wife comes from. Excepting direct creation by God or that the area contained other groups of people not mentioned by the Bible, the possibilities for Cain’s wife are that she was either a full sister of Cain, or she was Cain’s mother Eve, or from a later generation of descendants; it doesn’t mean he married immediately or even at his generation level, a great deal of time could have elapsed. Adam was over 930 years old when he died.
    In Genesis 9:20-27, Ham saw his father Noah’s nakedness. The Talmud suggests that Ham may have sodomized Noah (Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin ). In more recent times, some scholars have suggested that Ham may have had intercourse with his father’s wife.
    Abraham’s brother Nahor married his niece Milcah, the daughter of his other brother Haran.
    In Genesis 19:30-38, living in an isolated area after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot’s two daughters conspired to inebriate and seduce their father due to the lack of available partners. Because of intoxication, Lot “perceived not” when his firstborn, and the following night his younger daughter, lay with him. (Genesis 19:32-35) The two children born were directly Lot’s sons and indirectly his grandsons, being his daughters’ sons. Likewise, their sons were also half-brothers (between them and with their mothers), having the same father.
    In one of the tales of a wife confused for a sister, Abraham admitted that his wife Sarah is also his half-sister, on his father’s side. However, in the rabbinic literature, Sarah is considered Abraham’s niece (the daughter of his brother, Haran).
    Abraham’s son Isaac married Rebekah, his first cousin once removed, the granddaughter of his father’s brother Nahor and niece Milcah. Isaac and Rebekah’s firstborn son Esau married his cousin Mahalah, daughter of his father’s brother Ishmael, while their second son Jacob married his cousins Leah and Rachel, daughters of his mother’s brother Laban. Marriage of cousins was not forbidden in biblical law.
    Jacob married Leah and Rachel (sisters) who were the daughter of Laban. Laban was the brother of Jacob’s mother Rebekah. This would make Jacob cousins with Leah and Rachel.
    In Genesis 35:22, Jacob’s firstborn son Reuben committed incest by sleeping with his father’s concubine Bilhah.
    In Genesis 38, Judah, the fourth son of Jacob, mistook his daughter-in-law Tamar for a prostitute while she was veiled, and had sex with her.
    The biblical character Amram married his paternal aunt, Jochebed, the mother of Miriam, Aaron and Moses.
    In the book of 2nd Samuel, Amnon, King David’s eldest son and heir to the throne, raped his half-sister Tamar; Tamar’s brother, Absalom, learned of the incident and, two years later, ordered his servants to have Amnon killed.[29] It is noteworthy that when pleading in vain with Amnon, Tamar said, “Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee”.
    In 2 Samuel 16:22, Absalom (son of King David) is in the middle of a rebellion against his father and sleeps with his father’s concubines on the roof inside a tent.
    I suppose these are the high morals you were speaking about @ ron.
    To cap it all sexual abuse and illicit relations plague the catholic church functionaries even today from top to bottom.The same has been reported often in international media.Even more jarring is the lack of punishment for the culprits.Following is a brief write up from wikipedia :
    Cases of child sexual abuse crimes (and subsequent cover-ups) committed in the 20th and 21st centuries by Catholic priests, nuns, and members of Roman Catholic orders have led to numerous allegations, investigations, trials and convictions. The abused include boys and girls, some as young as 3 years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14. The accusations began to receive wide publicity in the late 1980s. Many relate to cases in which a figure was accused of abuse for decades; such allegations were frequently made by adults or older youths years after the abuse occurred. Cases have also been brought against members of the Catholic hierarchy who covered up sex abuse allegations, moving allegedly abusive priests to other parishes, where abuse sometimes continued.

    The cases received significant media and public attention throughout the world, especially in Ireland, Canada, and the United States. Members of the Church’s hierarchy have argued that media coverage was excessive and disproportionate, and that such abuse takes place in other religions and institutions. A series of television documentaries in the 1990s, such as “Suffer the children” (UTV, 1994), brought the issue to national attention in Ireland. A critical investigation by The Boston Globe in 2002 led to widespread media coverage of the issue in the United States, which was dramatized in the 2015 film Spotlight. By 2010, much of the reporting focused on abuse in Europe.

    From 2001 to 2010 the Holy See, the central governing body of the Catholic Church, considered sex abuse allegations concerning about 3,000 priests dating back up to fifty years. Cases worldwide reflect patterns of long-term abuse and of the church hierarchy regularly covering up reports of alleged abuse. Diocesan officials and academics knowledgeable about the Roman Catholic Church say that sexual abuse by clergy is generally not discussed, and thus is difficult to measure. In the Philippines, where as of 2002 at least 85% of the population is Catholic, revelations of child sexual abuse by priests followed the United States’ reporting in 2002.

    In the United States the 2004 John Jay Report, commissioned from John Jay College and funded by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), was based on volunteer surveys completed by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the United States. The 2004 John Jay Report was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002.

    The surveys filtered provided information from diocesan files on each priest accused of sexual abuse and on each of the priest’s victims to the research team, in a format which did not disclose the names of the accused priests or the dioceses where they worked. The dioceses were encouraged to issue reports of their own based on the surveys that they had completed.

    The report stated there were approximately 10,667 reported victims (younger than 18 years) of clergy sexual abuse between 1950 and 2002:

    Around 81% of these victims were male.
    Female victims of sexual abuse by Catholic priests tended to be younger than the males. Data analyzed by John Jay researchers, shows that the number and proportion of sexual misconduct directed at girls under 8 years old was higher than that directed at boys the same age.
    22.6% were age 10 or younger, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 27% were between the ages to 15 to 17 years.
    A substantial number (almost 2000) of very young children were victimized by priests during this time period.
    9,281 victim surveys had information about an investigation. In 6,696 (72%) cases, an investigation of the allegation was carried out. Of these, 4,570 (80%) were substantiated; 1,028 (18%) were unsubstantiated; 83 (1.5%) were found to be false. In 56 cases, priests were reported to deny the allegations.
    For approximately 20 percent of the allegations, the priest was deceased or inactive at the time of the receipt of the allegation and typically no investigation was conducted in these circumstances. (shows the age)
    In 38.4% of allegations, the abuse is alleged to have occurred within a single year, in 21.8% the alleged abuse lasted more than a year but less than 2 years, in 28% between 2 and 4 years, in 10.2% between 5 and 9 years and, in under 1%, 10 or more years.
    The 4,392 priests who were accused amount to approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time. Of these 4,392, approximately:

    56 percent had one reported allegation against them; 27 percent had two or three allegations against them; nearly 14 percent had four to nine allegations against them; 3 percent (149 priests) had 10 or more allegations against them. These 149 priests were responsible for almost 3,000 victims, or 27 percent of the allegations.
    The allegations were substantiated for 1,872 priests and unsubstantiated for 824 priests. They were thought to be credible for 1,671 priests and not credible for 345 priests. 298 priests and deacons who had been completely exonerated are not included in the study.
    50 percent were 35 years of age or younger at the time of the first instance of alleged abuse.
    Almost 70 percent were ordained before 1970.
    Fewer than 7 percent were reported to have themselves been victims of physical, sexual or emotional abuse as children. Although 19 percent had alcohol or substance abuse problems, 9 percent were reported to have been using drugs or alcohol during the instances of abuse.
    Many of the reported acts of sexual abuse involved fondling or unspecified abuse. There was also a number of allegations of forced acts of oral sex and intercourse. Detailed information on the nature of the abuse was not reported for 26.6% of the reported allegations. 27.3% of the allegations involved the cleric performing oral sex on the victim. 25.1% of the allegations involved penile penetration or attempted penetration.

    And this is in the 20-21st century.Your hypocrisy is astounding.You have the audacity to insult books more than 5000 years old and dictate morals when your relatively newer religion has such a long list with the traditions being carried on to date.And to think that these are highly cited wikipedia articles.If I had pulled unsubstantiated articles from some anti christian site as you have liberally done with hinduism I am sure to have unearthed a mine of information.
    As for the expert you refer to he is just one of the many. There are some who feel that the partition of 1947 killings were legitimized by the scriptures. I only wish that these missionaries or “soul harvesters” had seen the crusades and inquisitions.
    Debates on theology and religion should take place in a mutually respectful way between people having reasonable knowledge of each other’s religion.You neither know anything about hinduism or other dharmic religions nor do you have the will to know.You are even ignorant about the rules of theological debates and want to make this a forum for proselytisation. You have no qualms about openly lying(incest and infanticide)and reveal your utter lack of respect for elders in your posts(last few lines of your reply).You are further not even conversant about what you post. I can hence conclude that there is no use debating with you.
    (I suppose rajeev reached this conclusion earlier.)

  51. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron / Ali Sina

    Vedas offer a variety of models to understand the world around and our place in it. When it comes to issues of God, soul etc, it offers a very intuitive model that was equally succinctly presented by Swami Dayanand Saraswati.

    It defines ‘I’ who is source of consciousness witnessing everything around as ‘Soul’ (S). There can be no denying its existence because if it is denied, then who is denying it?

    It sees the world around which is different from the ‘I’ and defines it as ‘Nature’ (N).

    Now it observes that the world around is being managed very smartly as per unchangeable laws. It defines the source of this smartness as Ishwar or ‘God’ (G).

    Now it proceeds further to define the various properties of Soul, Nature and God.

    For example, variety in life forms and the fact that Soul is beyond physical entities implies that it cannot be destroyed. Hence soul is immortal. Further soul has limited knowledge at a given point in time. Soul seeks happiness and eradication of miseries etc. It has free-will.

    Nature is inert and simply puppet of unchangeable laws. Even the mind and source of sense-organs are inert.

    God is smart because it is working smartly. Since universe is infinite in scope and complexities, God is also infinitely intelligent. Since God works for our benefits, He is kind. Since He ensures we do not skip our pursuit of happiness through right actions, He also punishes us and hence He is just. You can review more properties of Vedic God in the whole series of Vedic wisdom. Further knowledge can be found through self-introspection. We shall not dwell on it further.

    In summary, Vedic Philosophy defines 3 eternal entities – God, Soul and Nature – that always existed and will always exist. This is a very honest model because we all see this directly in our lives.

    It further states that creation and dissolution happen in continuous cycles. There comes a state when each soul is no more freely-willed. Either soul becomes unconscious during dissolution phase. Or certain souls act as per will of God after achieving salvation. Nature also comes to its root form and is under full control of God. Thus the three act as one single entity with one single command governing them.

    If we talk of present, soul S has a separate Free-Will and nature N is governed by God G as well as Soul S. But in state of dissolution, both S and N act as per will of God G.

    Then again creation happens and then once creation is complete, N and S separate out. This goes on and onelike day and night.

  52. vivek p says:

    Precisely my point. The Buddhist and Jain versions adapted and changed the ramayana to synthesis their own versions. In fact neither of them are vedic religions.So forwarding their versions only shows your ignorance. For all your display, are you even aware that the author Valmiki you are deriding was a tribal person read scheduled tribe aka a reserved category.I do not know who gave you the idea that the ramayana is an holy book on par with the vedas. A fact yet again to be taken care is that hinduism is the oldest living religion on the earth.It saw exchanges with the greeks(their olympic gods),romans , arabs etc.
    Another interesting thing is that theism came into atheistic buddhism (vajrayana) due to the synthesis at that time.
    Your bible talks about a test of virginity/purity of the woman and a test of drinking poison to prove that you are a true christian.I can see that you are not one as you are still alive.The source would be ali sina’s book on quran and science ( Not the exact name).Its the one with campbell debate.A very recent example of your church’s attempts to keep its flock together is creation science.
    Suffice to say. abrahamic religions will never understand our religions. Your reference to rama and sita is in your june 12 post where you also falsely allege sanction of incest.

  53. Ron says:

    Rama and Sita as siblings in Dasaratha Jataka

    The Dasaratha Jataka is one of the earliest, Buddhist, versions of the epic. In what might seem like a shocking twist, Rama and Sita are depicted as brother and sister in this version. The duo is not banished but sent away to the Himalayas by king Dasaratha in order to protect them from their jealous stepmother.

    The stepmother is the only antagonist, for there is no Ravana in this story. When things have cooled down, Rama and Sita return to Benaras ­– and not Ayodhya – and get married. As much as your morals are jarred by this incestuous turn of things, bear in mind that some communities make this provision to maintain purity of caste when there are no eligible matches.

    (Available in an English translation by V Fausboll, Kessinger Publishing)

    If it is incest then this Rama should not be treated as god

  54. Ron says:

    Hi Vivek,

    I have never said anywhere in my earlier posts that Rama and Sita were brothers and sisters. I don’t know how you conjured the premise that I stated that Rama and Sita were brother and sister.
    Anyways the following Indian/Hindu sites, books and authors say that there are lot of versions of Ramayana and some of them INDEED state that Rama and Sita were brother and sister.

    http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main50.asp?filename=Ws021111The_many.asp

    An excerpt from the article states
    “”It is known that there are hundreds of versions of the Ramayana. Paula Richman in her book Many Ramayanas (Oxford) describes several of these. And again there are different interpretations of the Valmiki Ramayana, many of which are not to the liking of those who are indulging in politics in the name of their faith.

    Surprisingly, the intolerance is shown by those who assert that Hinduism is tolerant and other religions are not.”

    Another excerpt from the article states
    “”Interestingly, one can see the correlation between the class-caste aspirations of the narration and interpretation. In the Buddhist Jataka, Sita is projected both as sister and wife of Ram. As per this version, Dashrath is King not of Ayodhya but of Varanasi. The marriage of sister and brother is part of the tradition of Kshatriya clans who wanted to maintain caste and clan purity. This Jataka tale shows Ram to be the follower of Buddha. Jain versions of the Ramayana project Ram as the propagator of Jain values, especially as a follower of nonviolence. The Buddhist and Jain versions show Ravana not as a villain but a great spiritual soul dedicated to the quest of knowledge and endowed with majestic command over passions – a sage and a responsible ruler.
    In the Thai Ramkirti, or Ramkin (Ram’s story), there is a twist in the tale and Soorpanakha’s daughter decides to take revenge after attributing her mother’s mutilation primarily to Sita. More interestingly, the focus is on Hanuman who in this telling is neither devout nor celibate but quite a ladies man, looking into the bedrooms of Lanka
    Ambedkar focusses on the issues pertaining to Ram’s killing of Shambuk for violating the prevalent norm where a low caste has no right to do penance.

    The Valmiki Ramayana and the Tulsidas Ramayana both account for the senseless killing of Shambu for doing penance and reciting Vedas.

    Choose your Ramayana Rama did murder/s or Rama committed incest. (Could be both incest and murder). Other killings are not taken into account.

    Stop believing in this bull-shit of Ramayana and if you want more proof let me know. It is extremely difficult to throw away a belief system which you have been brought up and indoctrinated with specially by loving but ignorant elders.

    Jesus is the only sinless person ever born, died and rose again. Jesus is the way, the truth and life.

  55. vivek p says:

    Rama and sita were not brother and sister.They were husband and wife.I do not know the extent of your depravity for stating wrongly without any reliable references and trying to present it as fact by copying it randomly from some website.

  56. vivek p says:

    @ron You have lifted this material from a rabid facebook post going by the name rss… . Firstly, the material you have presented is fallacious. Just see a wikipedia article on incest in hinduism. It will inform you that far from endorsing, incest is condemned in the Rigveda. This has also been the view of many foreign and indian indologists. The rigveda contains verses praising many gods with same/ slightly different attributes with the central theme revealed repeatedly in many verses. The sages call him Bramha, indra,varuna,agni ,vayu etc. but he is the same being just as people percieve a situation in different ways. This again may be found in a cited wikipedia article. Quoting a verse out of context and cherrypicking lines to suit your agenda shows that you never intended to approach with an open line. Further quoting from / reproducing articles which do not have cited references shows that your unstated aim is to insult and denigrate.
    The effects of the verses above are still seen in modern india today.Marrying within once clan is socially unacceptable.This has actually led to riot like situations. Members of a clan are considered to be kith and kin.For all your propaganda you will struggle to locate even one temple dedicated solely to Lord Bramha across India today. This is supposed to be his punishment. Every religious text has deeper layers of meaning. Taking a literalist approach is harmful to understanding of its theological meaning. A good example would be law in everyday life. The american constitution was passed more than 200 years ago.It had never literally envisaged civil rights or affirmative action. Yet these are very much legally sanctioned and protected in modern america. Suppose a person of the third gender reads the u.s constitution after 1000 years. Would he also not say just like you that the u.s. constitution denied his very existence and life and is extremist.Interpretations are subject to the moral standards of the current period. History has been witness to the fact that christian policy has never been one of live and let live.”Heretics” and “antichrist” are very familiar words.Granted Jesus Christ led an exemplary life. But so did many Indian sages , the Bodhisattva and the Sikh gurus. Infact a lot of synthesis occured by the fusion of Hinduism and Buddhism. A common charge in the west is that some scriptures promote sati and infanticide. You can go through all reliable works and will still not find any mention of either in the hindu scriptures. The best thing about Hinduism is that there has always been freedom to see god in your own way.I do not want to waste any energy about your so called casteism.
    Suffice to say the word has never ever been mentioned in the vedas. This is a fact attested by Indian and foreign researchers.The correct word is varna( i.e division or stratification based on economic classes)The varna system as practised in the vedic religion assigned people based on inclination and not on the basis of birth. Nowhere was it written that it was to be assigned on the basis of birth. The objective was to prevent cut throat economic competition and create classes . Society would not work perfectly if any class abstained.This system degraded over the ages bearing testimony to the fact that time is the eternal destroyer and became its current form due to a variety of reasons. It is worth noting that reservations and social measures have been constitutionally and judicially mandated for the upliftment of those who had to suffer. A welcome result has been the complete eradication of discrimination in urban india. The sanctioned system of varnas is still followed to letter in Bali,Indonesia . You can search the same in reliable sites. Another good aspect is the freedom of thought and speech in the vedic religion. Both women and men wrote explicitly. Agnostics and atheists were not killed or thrown from rooftops or labelled heretics for their views.
    I do not intend to touch on the inquisitions,crusades and attempts to destroy and discredit scientific process( Galileo case). Further the vedic people pioneered and made immense contributions to the hindu arabic numeral system, surgery ( shushruta and charka), economics( arthashashtra),sculptury etc
    Lastly if india and the vedic religion were so obnoxious as you portray them I wonder why christian west risked their necks to find it again and again?

  57. Ron says:

    Many non-Christians say that the Christians did this and that bad things to the natives in North America etc.

    But it should be noted that the West/European settlers were a mix of majority secular whites and minority Christians. Treaties were broken both by the Europeans and the natives (Red Indians/First nations). The Europeans prevailed not only because they had better arms and ammunitions but because most the European armies always began with prayers (Psalm 91) to the living God and blessing through Army chaplains and then commenced battles and hostilities.

    It was easy defeating demonic forces of Islam and pagan (hindu, Buddhist, sikh etc) and animist forces of Asia and Africa when you pray to the one and only one true living God who gives us salvation only through his Son Jesus Christ..

    How could Britian, France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy etc conquer so much colonies thousands of miles away, across oceans and much bigger than them in area and population.

    I am not condoning or diminishing the misdeeds of the early settlers in North America and I strongly condemn it but it is wrong to blame it on Christianity.

  58. stanley says:

    Hi Ali, great response to Mara’s situation- I married a Muslim girl- it was hell. Am single now- please help enjoin me with Mara- we already have a lot in common. Definitely Christians and non- Christians must never be married.
    Thanks
    Stan

  59. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Ron,

    I think we should have a moderator for this discussion, I don’t think Ali Sina will be ready for that. If Ali Sina is ready then I will be happy to discuss.

    Rajeev

  60. Ron says:

    Rajeev Kumar et al,
    You seem to be an inquirer so let me put some questions forward.
    If reincarnation is true, then please answer the following:

    How come the world population is increasing? (it should be static and not growing at geometric progressions considering that 100% of humans die and are reborn and no-one has escaped rebirth)?

    If we consider that a significant number of people have escaped rebirth by attaining enlightenment, then the population should decrease.?

    Why do some people remember and why some don’t remember their previous lives?

    When you kill an ant or if a bee stings you (who is getting punished for what?)

    I would suggest that you check out Christ by saying the following prayer. You will be surprised that Jesus does answer when you reach out to God sincerely.

    Just pray “OH GOD WHO CREATED ME, I pray that you would come and reveal yourself to me in dreams and visions and reconfirm it through unexpected sources (may be my own relatives or an outsider) and I will follow you but if you do not reveal yourself to me then I will follow my present belief system”

    It is best if you replace the word and pray “OH LORD JESUS CHRIST” instead of “OH GOD WHO CREATED ME”.

    But if you have been indoctrinated and developed a deep hatred for JESUS CHRIST and you are not able to say JESUS CHRIST then please use “OH GOD WHO CREATED ME”.

    Christ will surely answer you as he answered these people who challenged Jesus in a similar prayer as above

  61. Rajeev Kumar says:

    People see what they want to see, not what is reality. Vedas cannot help those who have shut their mind to do their own imaginations. That’s what happens to the the followers of cult, their intellect is covered by faith. Discussions are for those who with open heart are willing to learn from each other by logically putting their points, not for those who are adamant and think they already know everything.

    Thanks Ali Sina for providing this space but sorry that nothing conclusive for all came out of these posts except wasting time and space.

    Almighty Ishwar whom we all praise using different names is witness of our heart and will do justice to whatever we did here, I leave it up to his justice with no ill will towards anyone.

    Regards

    Rajeev Kumar

  62. Ron says:

    @Truth Seeker et al,

    // Some famous preaching from Veda:Truth leads to happiness. Falsehood leads to miseries//
    This doesn’t mean you have to follow Vedas. Even Mein Kampf and Das Kapital has a lot of good writings but there is sprinkling of hate, divisiveness, and fear. So you don’t have to follow Hitler and Karl Marx. Similarly you don’t have to follow the Vedas.

    If the attributes (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) have indulged in bestiality, murder, incest, fornication, pedophilia, slavery, racism, casteism, robbery, kidnapping, abduction which is well documented in the Vedas and other Hindu Scriptures then you obviously have to dump these demonic gods, attributes and realize that all along since birth you have been indoctrinated by well-meaning parents out of their ignorance of Sanskrit.

    Also you have been probably unknowingly indoctrinated with hate towards Christians, Muslims and non-Hindus, cheered up on past glory of nation’s greatness, nationalistic pride by your educational institutions, politicians, media, society, fraternity and academia.

    If one does not come out of this indoctrination of hate and immoral teachings then you increase the proclivity to indulge in or support the above criminal activities done by Hindu gods/attributes (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva)

    Christ is the way, the truth and life. Christ is/was sinless always. Christ can free you from hate.

  63. Ngata says:

    Ron, thank you for your detailed knowledge on Hinduism and your account of it. It is indeed sad that the once Christian West who fluorished and prospered under their Christian faith values and culture to become so dominant in the world in spite of not being the most numerous people have fallen from their position of grace and favor into the decadence of an atheist and secular society. While the West were not always the best witnesses of their faith and their God, the West still had the moderating influence from their Christian faith to temper their actions of self ambition and arrogant domination of the world’s. Kinda reminds me of the history of Israel in terms of being blessed and cursed for faithfulness and unfaithfulness to God… thanks again Ron even though it pains me to refer to the West as the once Christian West.

  64. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Ron,

    Before opening other chapters , let’s first decide the topics of Justice of God . If instead of staying on the topic you jump here and there then no more attention will be given to it.

    Regards

    Rajeev

  65. Ron says:

    How Vedas promote racism (casteism). There is no chance of mistranslation. It is black and white and crystal clear racism from karma and past birth.
    Previous birth is used to justify racism. Period.

    Rig Veda 10.90.12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rājanya made. His thighs became the Vaiśya, from his feet the Śūdra was produced.

    Caste is based in Karma and caste of parents
    As per Hinduism, a person attains specific caste due to the deeds of past life, Krishna said,
    Gita 18.41 “Of Brahmanas, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas, as also the Sudras, O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities born of their own nature.” Tr. Swami Prabhupada

    Ramanuja Acharya writes on this verse,
    ”The character of Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, Vaishyas, and Sudras arise from their various inherent dispositions. In other words their past Karma is the cause of their being born in a specific social group…”
    Swami Swarupananda writes on Gita 18.41,
    “According to the Karma or habits and tendencies formed by desire, action, and association in the past life manifesting themselves in the present as effects. Or, nature (Svabhava) may here mean the Maya made up of three Gunas, the Prakriti of the Lord”

    It is mentioned in Brahma Vaivarta Purana,
    Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krishna Janma Khanda 74.10 ”According to Karma, some go to heaven or are severally born in the houses of a Brahmin, Ksatriya, Vaisya or a Sudra.” Tr. Rajnedra Nath Sen
    Chandogya Upanishad 5.10.7. ‘Those whose conduct has been good, will quickly attain some good birth, the birth of a Brahmana, or a Kshatriya, or a Vaisya. But those whose conduct has been evil, will quickly attain an evil birth, the birth of a dog, or a hog, or a Kandala.” Tr. Swami Nikhilanda.

    Jesus alone was sinless. Point out one sin, crime which Jesus did? Zilch. Jesus is the way, the truth and life.

  66. Ron says:

    When you make a truth claim about the validity of the Vedas then it has to stand the test of truth. All Hindu scriptures like Manu Smriti, Puranas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bhavisya Puranas, Vedas and Upanishads etc. individually mention, promote, justify or advocate all or a combination of the following: bestiality, murder, incest, fornication, pedophilia, slavery, racism, casteism and documents Hindu gods committing it.

    The average Hindu does not know the above as it is in Sanskrit and the proponents of Hinduism knowingly or unknowingly hide behind the reason that it is Sanskrit and nonchalantly claim it’s a mistranslation.
    You said that the Sanskrit word for horse and salt is same. Agreed but we know when the Vedas mention penis of horse, and women ‘s vagina and then semen then it is obvious that the Sanskrit word used means “horse “and certainly not “salt” and we can certainly conclude that the Vedas in this case are advocating bestiality.

    If we are unknowingly promoting the Vedas as pure then it is ignorance and understandable but knowingly advocating vulgarity, bestiality and promoting Vedas as holy and purity is disingenuous.
    I have practically visited most of the holy shrines of all the major world religions except Islam (as it is in Mecca and is difficult) when I was secular. Hinduism has its mysticism which draws most of us in the West who do not know Christ but have Christian names. But Hinduism is blatantly racist (casteist) against its own adherents and it is sanctioned in the Manu Smriti and Vedas.

    I accepted Christ only after seeing a radical transformation of a friend who had a wild and vile life who suddenly became loving, caring, forgiving and compassionate. I singled out that it was only accepting and following Christ that made the difference in him and nothing else.

    When you grow up in any country there are nationalist groups with vested interests which will indoctrinate you through media, education, re-writing of history, religion and politics etc. to believe in a nation’s erstwhile greatness or glorious past and a chance for a glorious future if certain impediments to the future are removed. Unknowingly you will be filled with hate with a mix of nationalistic pride.
    Politicians whether from the right or from the left in any country will use hate, fear, entitlements, nationalism, empty promises etc. to garner votes.

    Commonly here in the West they will spread hate/fear for Jews, hate for Muslims, hate for blacks, hate for Immigrants, Hate for Indians, Hate for Chinese/Asians, Hate for gays etc. Hitler, Mussolini used greatness of Germany in the Bismarck era, and the greatness of the Roman empire. Nationalism is less used in the West because in the past nationalist parties have ushered in fascism, Nazism and fanaticism.

    I believe in South Asia the politicians will use religion and hate for Muslims, hate for Christians, hate for missionaries. They will talk about India’s greatness before the British came in which is untrue.

    It should be noted that India was a region of many kingdoms before the Muslims invaded and spread their empire. Even under the Muslims, you will note that India never had one ruler though the Mughals held significant territory.

    India became one as it had one Viceroy for administrative purposes under the British who conquered every separate kingdom and made them vassal states under it.

    Be thankful to the British who united India but who also did divide and rule. If the British had not conquered India, by now it would have been an Islamic country. Islam can easily defeat paganism but can be only defeated by the love of Christ.

    Leave that indoctrination of hate (Vedas, Manu Smriti, Hindu Scriptures) and come to the love of Christ.

  67. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Ron, Vedas are the source of all true knowledge, read the translation of Vedas by Swami Dayanand Saraswati and all your myths about Vedas will evaporate. All the translations you read about Vedas from Maxmuller, Saayan etc are not good. Maxmuller work was inspired by Christian missionaries to destroy Indian culture.

    If you are a truth seeker then I strongly recommend that read transalation by Swami Dayananda.The verses of Vedas are so deep and the power of Sanskrit language is such that each word has many meanings and context and capability is very important to under stand the meaning of the sentence, so people like Maxmuller and others took the literal meaning. Here is an example ,in Sanskrit there is a word called ‘Sandhev’ which has 2 meanings 1) Horse 2) Salt. So if somebody says bring me ‘Sandhev’ then context is important to take the proper meaning . If the person is at dinner table then it’s meaning will be salt but if he is about to go somewhere then the meaning will be ‘horse’.

    There is a book by Swami Dayanand called “Introduction to Vedas” please read that and you will know the truth.
    Here is the link
    http://www.vjsingh.info/book2.html

    There is another book by Swami Dayanand known as “Light of Truth” this book is for anyone interested in understanding the truth. Here is the link

    http://www.vjsingh.info/books.html

    These books are in question answer format and the writer gives proof of what he says from Vedas and other good scriptures.

    Regards

    Rajeev

  68. Truth Seeker says:

    Some famous preaching from Veda:

    Truth leads to happiness. Falsehood leads to miseries

    – Any attempt to seek happiness through falsehood would eventually lead to miseries with added penalties

    – One should proactively seek happiness for world. Happiness multiplies by sharing.

    – Law of Karma is unchangeable and working every moment. Your thoughts shape your reality.

    – Soul is immortal and keeps facing fruits of its actions as per Law of Karma.

    – There is a Supreme Force governing the world through unchangeable laws.

  69. Truth Seeker says:

    [email protected]

    __________-but we have to look at the founders of these religions_________

    No one is founder of religion. Religion is as eternal as God. Cults are formed not religion. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity are cult not religion. You may argue which is batter or worst cult.

    _____________Here Christ stands out as sinless, unique and claimed________

    No, human had been sinless in past and will be future. It there is any sprite who is sinless no one but God.

    Birth in itself is result of sins.

  70. Truth Seeker says:

    @Ron

    You are hitting blindly. Show some maturity. You are writing about Yajurveda as if you are very familiar with it. Stop this hypocrisy. Do not talk about the things of which you have no Idea. Things you are writing on name of Veda just nonsense crap. Rajiv has given a philosophical point of view if you are disagree refute him philosophically.

    If say Veda 1.5 “say kill your mothers, rape with your sister, get fucked by dog ” It would be my stupidity. It is not a way of a truth seeker but hate monger.

  71. Ron says:

    Rajeev,
    We can always find fault with the adherents of all religions , but we have to look at the founders of these religions. Here Christ stands out as sinless, unique and claimed and proved he was divine by his words, acts and deeds

    Mohamed killed, raped, robbed, abducted, kidnapped, pedophiled etc.

    Brahma did rape, incest, lied etc

    Krishna aka Vishnu robbed, killed, raped, voyeurism, gang-rape, homosexual acts (with Shiva) to get god Ayappan,

    Shiva also killed, raped did homosexual acts

    Buddha abandoned (paternal responsibility) wife and son

    Sikh Gurus killed others

    Rama killed innocent Shambhu for learning/reciting vedas and doing meditation.

    Christ alone is sinless who gave life to the dead, healed the sick /lepers, gave eyes to the blind and made the deaf and mute to hear and speak, multiplied food, died and rose again for yours and mine sins.

    Christ is the way, the truth and life.

  72. Ron says:

    Vedic Hinduism promoting Bestiality advocated and practised in the Vedas (this time it is Yajurveda)

    Yajur Veda 23.19-21 All wife of the host reciting three mantras go round the horse. While praying, they say: ‘O horse, you are, protector of the community on the basis of good qualities, you are, protector or treasure of happiness. O horse, you become my husband’. After the animal is purified by the priest, the principal wife sleeps near the horse and says: ‘O Horse, I extract the semen worth conception and you release the semen worth conception. The horse and principal wife spread two legs each. Then the Ardhvaryu(priest) orders to cover the oblation place, raise canopy etc. After this, the principal wife of the host pulls penis of the horse and puts it in her vagina and says: “This horse may release semen in me. Then the host, while praying to the horse says: “O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively.

  73. Ron says:

    How do you explain bestiality in the vedas (in the other hindu scriptures it is more explicit)

    SEX WITH ANIMALS IN THE VEDAS

    Some Hindus proudly promote Vedas as philosophical, free from all vulgarities. But in reality there is no limit for Vulgarity in Vedas. It even promotes sex with animals let alone adultery and pornography. Sex with animals in Hinduism is not a vulgar thing, Ancient Hindu temples like Khajuraho, Ajanta, Ellora clearly depicts men and girls having sex with animals.

    ”As a buffalo (Indra) desired the lusty female born from himself; the mena of the horse he made into the mother of the cow”- Rig Veda 1.121.2, Tr. Geldner.

    Maharshi Yaska mentions a strange story about the birth of Asvins (the twin horsemen). Which is a elaboration of Rig Veda Mandal 10, hymn 17. The story says Saranyu was unwilling to have sex with Vivasvat and ran away but Vivasvat chased her and raped her. Yaska writes,

    Nirukta 12.10 ”Saranyu daughter of Tvastr bore twins, Yama and Yami, to Vivasvat the sun. She having substituted another lady of similar appearance, and having assumed the shape of a mare, ran away. He, Vivasvat, the sun, having also assumed the shape of a horse, pursued her, and joined her. Thence the Asvins were born. Manu was born from the lady of similar appearance.”

  74. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Now you have started diverting from the main points , which were God’s Justice. heaven and hell. So stay on these topics and explain your logivcal Biblical views on these . About Brhama, Vishnu and Shiva I answered that earlier these are just the attributes of the same Vedic God which never takes birth and is formless according to Vedas. All the bullshit you mentioned in your post is from puranas and is worth rejection as Puranas were written by wicked people and condemns the true God. I see Puranas, Bible and Korans as more or less synonyms to wicked people written scriptures. About aryan invasion theory you mentioned was the bulshit propagated by british invaders and christian missionaries to destroy Indian culture, now by DNA testing it has been proven that all people in India are same people and no Aryan came from outside. There is no mention of any such invasion in any aryan books as well. You can see around the world wher ever muslim and christian went they destroyed the local culture , language . In Canada they destroyed the aboriginal people with all their crooked ness, don’t want to go more into that. Both Bible and Koran survives on hating other religions as there is no truthfulness in them to offer their devotees. The missionary work in other countries is also a sham and so was mother teresa and other saints, they converted the local people under the garb of social service.

    I look at Puranas, Bible and Korans as the ponzi scheme to lure people in their designs and make them have faith and become thoughtless and let the mediator ( Jesus, Mohammed, some guru) do the broker job between their god and the people.

    All these make their believer live in wonderlands with all their sins vanishing just by being their member and place in eternal heaven secured and if they don’t accept the membership then warn them to ready for eternal hell. Their heaven /hell concept is also at body level heaven will have garden, free supply of sex etc. etc which any tom and jerry dream about.

    In Veda the emphasis is on purifying thoughts and action by attaining true knowledge. Vedic God says that “Be human” . I am a veda follower but I know that if some christian /Muslim is doing more good to the world then that person will be rewarded more than me and same for punishment.

    A sleeping person can wake but those who are dead or pretending to be sleeping cannot be woken up.

    Regards

    Rajeev

  75. Ron says:

    Why should you believe in the Vedas, Vedic God Brahma who according to the Vedas and Hindu Scriptures committed incest, rape , bestiality and apart from telling lies from his 4 heads?

    Brahma is the main god of the Hindu religion as expounded by the Smarta pantheists. He is one of the Hindu (i.e. Smarta) trinity of Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva.
    Brahma is also Brahman, the Supreme Infinite God. Yet, Vishnu is himself considered merely another manifestation of Brahman or Brahma. Brahma in the form of Prajapati is the creator of the Universe in the Vedic religion. He is hence the most important Vedic god, towering like a colossus above Vishnu and Rudra (later on Rudra was identified with the Dravidian Shiva).
    The beastly behavior of this God is thus especially significant, and shows how the rotten nature of Hinduism extends to the very foundation. Brahma’s Incest with Saraswati
    The savage Vedic Aryans who invaded India practiced widespread incest, cannibalism, sati and other barbarities. It is hence no surprise that the main Vedic god also displayed animal characteristics.
    He had incest with his own daughter, an act that is perfectly legal in Vedic law: “Brahma is one of the 3 main gods – Trimurti – of the Hindu pantheon. He is the creator of the universe. Sarasvati, who became the wife of her own father, was the daughter of Brahma.
    There are 2 stories about her genesis in the `Sarasvati Purana’. One is that Brahma created his beautiful daughter Saraswati direct from his `vital strength’ or seminal fluid. The other is that Brahma used to collect his semen in a pot whenever he masturbated fixing his carnal eyes on the celestial beauty Urvasi. Brahma’s semen in the pot gave birth to the sage Agastya, and Agastya in turn gave birth to Saraswati. Thus, Saraswati had no mother.”
    This daughter or grand-daughter of Brahma is the Hindu goddess of learning. When Brahma saw the beauty of Saraswati he became amorous. To escape from her father’s passionate approach Saraswati ran to the lands in all four directions, but she could not escape from her father. She succumbed to Brahma’s wish. Brahma and his daughter Saraswati lived as husband and wife indulging in incest for 100 years. They had a son Swayambhumaru and a daughter Satarupa.
    Through the incest of Brahma’s son and daughter Brahma got two grandsons and two grand-daughters.” (Kovoor, p.76) The legend is given in the following `sacred’ Vedic texts (Spellman, p.28): Aitareya Brahmana.III.33 Satapatha Brahmana.I.7.4.1ff; XIV, 4.2.1ff; Matsya Purana.III.32 ff; Bhagavata Purana.III.12. 28ff.Justification of Incest

    In all these `holy’ scriptures, this act of unrestrained incest is justified and upheld as a legal act!” Brahma followed Savitri [ Sarasvati], married her, and they lived together in a lotus for one hundred years. The Purana [ Matsya] then points out that no question arises regarding prohibited acts of the gods since they do not reap the fruits of their karma (actions) as do mortals.
    A further justification of Brahma’s action is given by noting that Brahma is the lord of the Vedas and Savitri is the goddess of the Vedas. They therefore are inseparable, and to unite the Vedas with the sacred prayer can surely be no evil.” (Spellman, p.30) However, the Vedas, which carry far more authority than the Puranic and Brahmanic texts cited above, enjoin this practice.
    Incest, far from being a `corruption’ introduced after the Vedic Dark Ages, was thus a common practice during that age of barbarism and illiteracy, and is a Hindu institution perfectly sanctioned in the Vedas.

    Vedic Sanction of Incest One of the most irrefutable facts proving that Hinduism is evil right at its very foundation is the fact that the Vedas justify the beastly act of incest as a `sacred act’. This was no doubt an outcome of the strict practice of `brahmacharya’ which produced hordes of sexually starved psychopathic sadhus.
    It is these mad sadhu Brahmins, the authors of the concocted Vedas, who justified and legalized incest. Indeed, the Vedas enjoin incest as a kind of marriage. This fact was utilized by Brahma when convincing his daughter Sarasvati (also known as Padma) to succumb to his unlimited lust:” 8. On seeing his beautiful daughter Padma, Brahma was sexually excited. He wooed his daughter and wanted to copulate with her. How could a daughter give consent to her own father? Padma refused. Brahma could not give up his desire. He began to quote the Vedas to convince her that there was nothing wrong in having sex with anyone, anytime, anywhere for the sake of giving birth to a child. ”– (Puran)

    This is the Vedic verse in Sanskrit which justifies incest and which was quoted by Brahma: “Mathara Mupathya, susara Mupatithe, Puthrartheetha. Sagamarthi, Napathra loka, nastheethath. Saravam paravo vindu ha, dasmath Puthrar tham. Matharam suransathee Rehathee”- (Veda, cited in Puran) Translated this verse means” For the sake of a child one can enjoy his own sister or daughter, without any sin attached to it. ” (Puran) There are other abundant examples of incest from the Vedic age. These prove that the Vedic Aryans regularly practiced incest of the father-daughter type and the brother-sister type (Sita). Moreover, the Vedas fully legalize this abominable practice.

    These evil practices continued right throughout the Brahmanic Dark Ages of 2599 years (1500 BC – 1000 AD). Thus, for example, Rama married his sister Sita when she was still only 6 years old (Sitaram). Brahma’s Bestiality with a Bear Brahma, the main god of the Vedic religion, was so lecherous that he was not satisfied with his own daughter. In fact, feelings of lust crept up when he saw even females of animal species! He was so frustrated that he copulated with a bear:” 11. Brahma started roaming about in forests. He happened to see a female bear in a bush. Brahma would not leave it. He went straight to the bear. The female bear yielded to Brahma’s lust. God Brahma enjoyed the bear, and a human being with the head of a bear was born. He was called Jambu Vandan, the son of Brahma. (Puran)–

  76. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Hi Ron,

    1) In Veda there is only one and only one God and Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are just the attributes of the Vedic God , which means creator (Brahma), omnipresence(Vishnu) and benefactor of souls(Shiva). In Vedism there is no concept of 330 million God and there are verses in Veda where it is written that there are no 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, or 10 but only one Vedic God and his name is OM. Those who believe there are multiple Gods in Vedas , don’t know about Veda . This verse is also regarded by many as the basis of decimal system.

    2) Vedic God does not deliver judgement on a particular day like Bible or Koran but the moment someone does right or wrong the judgement happens at that moment itself, as OM (Vedic God) being omnipresent is witness to all we do, he does not need help of anyone to prove someone innocent or guilty. But the reward and punishment can not be served immediately as the soul is currently serving the reward or punishment of his past karmas. So when the time of current deeds reward or punishment will come then only it will be served.

    3) Purpose of Justice is to correct someone and give him the justice in proportion to the good or bad deed. So OM (Vedic God) does not give infinite reward of heaven or hell to anyone like Bible and Koran does.

    4) It is very wise of OM that we don’t know or remember our past life Karma , imagine if we know our past birth then the whole world will be in chaos as someone who was a rich person in past life but now a beggar in his present life , he will dies of this shock , he will leave his current family and would like to join his rich family which may be accessible/not accessible, and if the rich family accepts him then the justice itself will fail. Those who know the Vedic system knows that this is how the whole world is working and not based on false faith and living in dream world of illogical heaven and hell stories. It’s our duty to read the Vedas which is the constitution of the world and then such questions of remembering the past lives won’t arise.

    Bible and Koran God gave anyone anything , makes somebody intelligent or dumb as per his will and still you believe it’s justice then what’s injustice my friend ?

    5)Unlike heaven/hell , Vedic system has the concept of Moksha(Mukti or Freedom) In Moksha soul is in complete blissful state with true knowledge of himself as well as Vedic God.There is no concept of houris or virgins or money exchanges like in Koran and Bible. Vedic Moksha and Vedic God can be realized while one is living his current life and we have so many Vedic seers like Patanjali(Who discovered Yoga from Vedas) who explains the full process of how the body and mind are controlled and one get rid of ignorance and attain true knowledge to attain Vedic God or Moksha. Koran or Bible heaven /hell happens when one has died .

    Hope I have answered all of your queries, please ask if something is still not clear

    Regards

    Rajeev

  77. Ali Sina says:

    @Ron

    The reincarnation is reported by many near death experiencers, Many early Christians also believed in reincarnation. This doctrine was expurgated by the Church in the year 553 AD. It would be a grave mistake to believe that the Church has always been right. In fact the Church has almost always been wrong.

    Please read this

    During the period from A.D. 250 to 553 controversy raged, at least intermittently, around the name of Origen, and from this controversy emerged the major objections that orthodox Christianity raises against reincarnation. Origen of Alexandria, one of Christianity’s greatest systematic theologians, was a believer in reincarnation.

    Origen was a person devoted to scriptural authority, a scourge to the enemies of the church, and a martyr for the faith. He was the spiritual teacher of a large and grateful posterity and yet his teachings were declared heresy in 553. The debates and controversies that flared up around his teachings are in fact the record of reincarnation in the church.

    The case against Origen grew by fits and starts from about A.D. 300 (fifty years after his death) until 553. There were writers of great eminence among his critics as well as some rather obscure ecclesiasts. They included Methodius of Olympus, Eppiphanius of Salamis, Theophilus, Bishop of Jerusalem, Jerome, and the Emperor Justinian. The first of these, Methodius of Olympus, was a bishop in Greece and died a martyr’s death in the year 311. He and Peter of Alexandria, whose works are almost entirely lost, represent the first wave of anti-Origenism. They were concerned chiefly with the preexistence of souls and Origen’s notions about the resurrection of the dead. Another more powerful current against Origenism arose about a century later. The principals were Ephiphanius of Salamis, Theophilus of Alexandria, and Jerome.

    From about 395 to 403 Origen became the subject of heated debate throughout Christendom. These three ecclesiats applied much energy and thought in search of questionable doctrine in Origen. Again the controversy flared up around 535, and in the wake of this the Emperor Justinian composed a tract against Origen in 543, proposing nine anathemas against “On First Principles”, Origen’s chief theological work. Origen was finally officially condemned in the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, when fifteen anathemas were charged against him.

    The critics of Origen attacked him on individual points, and thus did not create a systematic theology to oppose him. Nonetheless, one can glean from their writings five major points that Christianity has raised against reincarnation:

    (1) It seems to minimize Christian salvation.
    (2) It is in conflict with the resurrection of the body.
    (3) It creates an unnatural separation between body and soul.
    (4) It is built on a much too speculative use of Christian scriptures.
    (5) There is no recollection of previous lives
    .
    Read more http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen1.html

  78. Ron says:

    Please read the last line below
    *No judgement, no hell and no heaven does NOT seem fair justice? Or does it?

  79. Ron says:

    If the purpose of rebirth is to punish/reward (read as debit/credit) you for your good deeds/bad deeds in previous life, then it should be possible for majority (actually everyone) to remember their past lives. But this does not happen.

    There are some people (a miniscule percentage i.e. maybe 1 in 100 million) who claim to remember their previous lives and there are recorded incidents of handful of people who remembered past lives and related significant memories of them which is debatable.
    This can be explained easily by possession and demonic activity.

    In our human legal and justice system we lock away an offender (convict) in a correctional facility for a period of time after going through a trial. Sometimes they are given capital punishment because of the severity of the crime. So here the indicted suspect when convicted knows and remembers his offence and we at least expect that once out from the correctional facility he/she will not repeat the offence again.

    In the Vedic rebirth system when you don’t remember (the vast majority don’t remember their previous lives whether they were humans, animals, flea, plant, amoeba or virus etc.) your past lives then it is illogical (not possible and not sensible) to correct or pay or get rewarded for past behaviour.

    Moreover, who (which God or pantheon of gods) is overseeing that the whole system of above is working flawlessly? Is it Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu and or the 330 million gods?

    Judgement and then heaven or hell certainly look like better alternative system. At least people like Stalin/Mao/Hitler/Pol Pot who escaped the earthly justice would get divine justice.
    No judgement, no hell and no heaven does seem fair justice? Or does it?

  80. Truth Seeker says:

    Islam put lot of emphasis on breeding profusely. A translation of Quran even says: Women are like your production farms. I think it is 2.223.

    While other religions see sin in sex, and respect right of woman to deny sex, Islam made it a religious order that no woman can refuse sex to husband. Also a liberal talaq system, polygamy, unlimited sex-slaves/ illegitimate relations made sure that there is no hindrance in having sex with women and hence breeding. So Islam spread by reproducing more than any other religious system. In India, Muslims were 7% during partition. Now they are at least 3–4 times. Many Islamic interpretaions gave further incentives to breed more children if you are in a country with significant non Muslim population. This is supposed to help establish Muslim rule in future.

    Further more you breed, and more you breed children with Vitamin D deficiency in mother, and with marriage in close kins, medically it impacts the intelligence of children. So you create a population of less intelligent, who will be gullible and fanatic enough to continue violent and brutal ways. Ideal candidates for brainwashing.

    Hence Islam spread fast.

  81. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Hi Ali Sina, Thanks for your reply , I think I now know enough to distinguish between truth and untruth and ready to change my views if something is incorrect , here I will write something on Vedic philosophy . I won’t go deep into science at cell and atom level so will try to explain things in simple terms.

    There are 3 things which are eternal i.e have no cause for their beginning and never ends, these are a) Vedic God (attributes are protector, all knowing, omnipresent, judge, creator of the universe using primordial matter, formless,teacher,conscious, omnipotent,blissfull, indivisible, never change, never takes birth etc. ), b) Souls (conscious ,indivisible, never change, etc ) c) Primordial matter( can change and transform into different forms)

    God again and again creates, sustain and dissolve the universe. God creates this universe using the already existing primordial matter using his knowledge like we make bread using flour , water, heat etc. God delivers justices to souls(i.e conscious being like us) by giving them birth in different bodies based on our past karma(action). So same soul can take birth as animal, insect , human beings with different personalities like intelligent , strong weak etc based on their karmas. Souls when take birth in non human bodies then they don’t have the freedom to act but rather work as prisoners in jails , where they get punishment of their bad deeds. When souls are born as human beings due to good past karmas souls gets the freedom and hence are responsible for their good or bad actions, which determine their present and future lives. Each of us including animals and insects etc are individual soul only.

    Soul has inherent desire for getting pleasure/bliss , this pleasure it can get from matter (food, house, other person etc) or from God. Whatever all living beings do whether good or bad is done with the intention to get pleasure.

    Vedic God gives knowledge in the very beginning of the mankind and creates many human beings (unlike a pair in Bible ). Unlike Bible and Koran ,Vedic God’s is all knowing and his knowledge remain same always and does not evolve over time does not send messengers and prophets to deliver his newly acquired knowledge as claimed by Bible and Koran. As human beings when we get rid ourselves of ignorance (lust, anger, greed, attachment etc) and do yoga then in high levels of meditation , the bliss of God is experienced by us while living on earth itself , we start acquiring some of this bliss and knowledge from Vedic God. After death the soul acquires bliss directly from God for a very long period of time ( 36000 time the age of one universe cycle) .After this the soul again enters the cycle of birth and death and reason for that is soul being finite in power cannot do something for which it will get infinte reward or punishment.

    Vedic God does not say that if you don’t worship me then I will do bad to you , he does not send any messenger or son as for him all souls are like his son only. Emphasis is mainly on acquiring true knowledge and practice of it by doing good deeds to self and others .

    Here writing some of the good stuff which I found useful .

    Whatever objects (living , non living) we know in this world are known by the attributes of those objects. For, e.g we know our parents,kids ,cow,car, pencil, computer etc by their attributes. If someone ask us to grab mangoes then if we know the attributes like color, smell of mangoes and if mangoes is available then we can pick mangoes. In our home we recognize our kids , parents by their attributes only and soon. At this time when you are reading this you are knowing the meaning by knowing the attributes of each literal alphabet 🙂
    Similarly to know God we must know his attributes and then only we can be sure that the God we are believing in is the right God or we are following something non sense.

    World works in a cycle. Our body works in a cycle, day and night has a cycle , water has a cycle, the bodies of all living as well as non living beings are in a cycle. We see after birth, death is a certainty , so what after death ? . By observing the cycles in all sphere of life we can conclude that after death birth must happen to complete the cycle.

    Now you may question what you found illogical in the main elements of Vedic philosophy I wrote above and I will try to answer or correct myself by accepting the truth as Truth and truth alone ultimately wins.

  82. Ali Sina says:

    @ Rajive Kumar

    1) Why we see so much difference between people created by God, like some are beautiful others are ugly , somebody is intelligent and other not that intelligent etc.?

    While I do not pretend to understand the truth about God I can share the little that I understand. It may not be the truth, which means I am open to change my views should they proven wrong.

    The foundation of this universe is based on diversity. No two flakes of snow are identical, which makes me believe no two atoms of the same element are identical. People are different physically, psychologically and spiritually.

    Did God create us differently? I don’t think so. I don’t believe God created us at all. All things are the products of evolution and many factors influence how species evolve and individuals grow.

    Some of these factors are external, such as the environment and chance and some are internal such as the consciousness of the living organism that strives to grow and evolve. While scientists agree on the external factors, not many of them agree on the internal influences because that would take them to spiritual realms that science cannot penetrate.

    I believe that the internal impulses for evolution is outweigh the external influences. I believe that God is not the creator. He is the observer. He is the one who wrote the software of the universe and switched on the power. The universe is now evolving by its own without God’s intervention. We are free, not just us humans but every atom and electron is free. We set the pace and the direction of our evolution. This is done subconsciously through the collective consciousness of each species.

    Even our soul is not created by God. It is rather a clone of Him. We are fractals of God having a physical experience.

    Let me make an example. Think of the billions of cells that make your body. They are individual beings each with a mind of its own. You can see this under the microscope. Watch this white cell chasing a bacterium. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxTYyNEbVU4 This clip shows that the white cell is a conscious being with free will and so are the bacteria.

    While each cell in our body is a conscious individual, they do not have the same awareness that we have. The totality is more than the sum of the parts. When the cells in a body work together a new consciousness appears. That consciousness is you and me. We are the collective consciousness of all our cells. If we grow all cells in our body benefit. If we get sick or die all cells get sick and die within a few hours or days.

    Now imagine each member of a species as a cell. All species also have a collective consciousness. That collective consciousness is the vital force behind the evolution. Darwin discovered something amazing, but it was only a part of the truth. He discovered the mechanism of evolution but could not detect the vital force behind that mechanism. This is beyond Newtonian science because the Newtonian science cannot measure consciousness. This is the missing link in Darwin’s theory of evolution.

    So why are we different? It is not because God made us different but because we have different consciousness. We do not think alike and we do not act the same way. My likes and yours are different, therefore my evolutionary path and your evolutionary path are different. That is why species are different from each other and each individual is different from other individual. We are what we are because of the choices that we make.

    You ask why some people are ugly. Why some are born imbecile or with handicaps? Why would anyone choose to be born with deficiencies that affect his or her enjoyment of life? The answer is that we are what we are because of the consequences of our choices. Take the example of a homeless man living in the streets. He did not choose to become homeless consciously. But he is homeless as the result of the bad choices that he made.

    Whatever we do has a consequence. It affects us and it affects the world. Sometimes the causes are obvious. For example, the homeless man is homeless because of his addiction, or someone has lung cancer because of smoking, etc. Sometimes the causes are not obvious because they originate from our past lives. I read a story of a woman who was in constant abusive relationships. She was tiny in stature and all men she encountered abused her and were harsh on her. In her near death experience she discovered that in her previous life she was a big man and abusive of others. She came back this time to pay back and experience life from the point of view of people whom she bullied in her previous life.

    God created this universe with checks and balances. Nothing is lost. If you abuse others, you will be abused, either in this life or in the next. Whoever lives by the sword dies by the sword.

    Don’t blame God for the inequalities. God has given us complete freedom to be what we want to be. We can become a Hitler or a Mother Theresa. The choice is always ours. And don’t think life ends at death. Sow whatever good seeds you can because if you don’t harvest them in this life, you will in the next. Whatever we do to others we do it to ourselves.

    2) Do the non-human beings also have souls or they don’t have any soul?
    All conscious beings have soul, even the bacteria. The difference is in the size. People differ in the size of their souls too. The biggest soul ever to come to this earth was Jesus Christ. Other than that he is no different from us. All souls are of the same essence, just as all animals are made of the same elements.

    3) What will happen to non-Christians? Do good people go to hell if they are not Christian and do bad people go to heaven if they are Christian?

    God does not care about religion. God loves all those who love Him and love their neighbors and hates those who hurt other people. If something does not make sense to you, it is not true. Do not accept it. God loves all the people whether Christian or not. He sent his son to save all mankind. God is not respector of people. If you love God with your heart, mind and spirit and love others, you will go to heaven whether you call yourself a Christian or not. And if you are a Christian but your heart is filled with hatred of others you most certainly will not go to heaven even if you are a pastor of a church.

  83. Rajeev Kumar says:

    Hi Ali Sina, I know you through your website for more than 10 years and like the way you understand things. From this post came to know that you have found Jesus and his God as the ultimate truth . But how do answer these questions based on Bible. These are based simply on the justice of God and I see truth as accepting things the way they are and not as the way we assume them they are.

    1) Why we see so much difference between people created by God , like some is beautiful other is ugly , somebody is intelligent and other not that intelligent etc. ?
    2) Do the non human beings also have souls or they don’t have any soul ?
    3) What will happen to non christians , are good non christians people will go to hell and even bad people in christian faith will go to heaven ?

    hope to see your comments on this.

    Regards

    Raj

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